Queer Voices
Queer Voices
November 8th 2023 Queer Voices - Comedian Jason Stuart, Stages Theater and "Always Patsy Cline"
First, we speak with gay comedian /actorJason Stuart who publicly came out 30 years ago on the Geraldo show. We discuss how this affected his career and the work he has done since then. Then, we discuss his upcoming projects.
Guest: Jason Stuart
https://www.jasonstuart.com/
Then we speak with Kenn McLaughlin, the artistic director of Stages Theater, who bids farewell after a remarkable 25-year tenure. Listen as Ken reflects on the transformative power of theater, his vision for a trans theater in Houston, and aspirations for a renaissance of queer expression. He also invites us behind the scenes of his new thriller, ‘Switzerland’, and his journey to casting Sally Edmondson.
Lastly, immerse yourself in our exploration of theater production. Discover how actors Kelly Peters and Holland Barber beautifully portrayed the iconic friendship between Louise and Patsy in the Stages Theater production of ‘Always, Patsy Klein’. Ken shares his thoughts on the unique intimacy that Stages Theatre fostered with its audience and the moving story of how he met his husband, Brad. So, join us on this enlightening journey through comedy, theater, and LGBTQ history.
Guest: Ken McLaughlin
https://stageshouston.com/about-staff-and-board/
Queer Voices airs in Houston Texas on 90.1FM KPFT and is heard as a podcast here. Queer Voices hopes to entertain as well as illuminate LGBTQ issues in Houston and beyond. Check out our socials at:
https://www.facebook.com/QueerVoicesKPFT/ and
https://www.instagram.com/queervoices90.1kpft/
Hello everybody. This is Queer Voices, a home-produced podcast that has grown out of a radio show that's been on the air in Houston, Texas, for several decades. This week, Brian Levinca talks with comedian Jason Stewart about his life as a gay comedian.
Speaker 2:You have to convince people that you can actually play straight people or different kinds of roles where I don't think straight people have the same judgment as they do on us still, and I don't think people even realize that they're doing it, and I learned that from my people of color brothers and sisters about microaggressions and what that does.
Speaker 1:Brett Cullum talks with stages theater artistic director Ken McLaughlin, who is getting ready to leave stages after 25 years and moved to Ireland.
Speaker 3:I love all theater, so I love all different kinds of theater. It's not all the same and I just think it. I think theater has been so commodified and our capacities to engage in it have been oppressed, and you know, we got to get all this stuff out of the way and just come and see and love theater.
Speaker 1:And we have news wrap from this Way Out Queer Voices starts now.
Speaker 4:This is Brian Levinca and today on Queer Voices we have the hilarious and out comedian, Jason Stewart.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Queer Voices, Jason hey thank you so much for having me. Before we start, I just wanted to say that I so appreciate all of your service in our community by interviewing me so many times over the years, supporting a lot of the shows and film and TV shows and stand-up shows and movies that I've done. It really really helped my career really a lot over the years and if it weren't for these kind of papers and mom and pop organizations that started out through our community, I wouldn't be where I am and I wouldn't be talking to you right now.
Speaker 4:Let's go back to the magical time that was the 90s. You were on a show for a talk show called Herodotra, vera and you came out. Tell us about that and what was the impact on your career.
Speaker 2:God, it was so long ago and I have so much, so many different feelings about it and I'm in such a different place. It was around 1990 when I started thinking about it. I came out in 93 and I had been asked to do the RSVP cruise and I remember that it was, you know. I thought, oh, this is the middle of the ocean, no one's going to know, it's just other gay people. And I said yes and I thought I'll experiment with this and I went on this cruise and I did stand-up and I did. Okay, my friend Karen Haber was the co-headliner, who is a dear friend of mine. Still comedian Harvey Fierstein was on it doing a show and he teased me the whole time, I remember, and I was completely overwhelmed. I'd never been around that many gay people ever and I did my show and it was okay and I realized, oh man, I have to talk about being gay. Being gay was not enough. So I decided to rewrite my entire act and then I got a call from Bud Freeman at the improv to do an AIDS benefit in Chicago and I thought, okay, this is my chance to see if this works again for gay people, again in the middle of the country and I went there and I spoke my truth and my complete act changed and the way I felt about myself and I guess it goes to when I was in the Gay Pride Parade in Los Angeles. I was sitting in a car waiting to go into the parade. Leah Delaria walked by me and screamed what took you so long? I took a beat and I went oh my God, why didn't you come out earlier? And I just said I didn't know I could and I didn't, but all I knew was to be gay. And, as my father would say, why can't you be gay and shut up about it? Bob and Tom are gay to live up the block. No one knows my slight depression that I think I've lived with through my entire life for being a gay person.
Speaker 2:The microaggressions that happened to me growing up, the bullying, the people thinking less of you, the idea of opportunities not equal to your straight counterparts all of that came in the decision to come out in 1993. And I had a friend who helped me write a press release Marcy Smolen, who's a big acting coach and I wrote it and in my apartment we faxed it to all these daytime talk shows and at the time biggest one was Phil Donahue, second was Geraldo and third was Oprah Can you believe it? And Sally, and then Jenny and a couple of the others that I can't remember Richard Bay or whatever Geraldo called and so did Sally, and we decided to go with Geraldo and they did a show called Unconventional Comedians. And you can actually go to my site, jasonstuartcom, and click on the videos and then click on interviews and you can see it there. I'm a fan and I don't know who made up this video for me and it was put online and I have it on video format. You can see what happened. And when I look at it again recently and I did this year, because this is my 30th anniversary of coming out publicly I remember how frightened I was.
Speaker 2:But watching the show itself, I see this young guy and I think, god, I was really prepared. I really was ready. So I'm proud of myself.
Speaker 4:So there was a heckler in the audience that you called Shelly Winners in another interview.
Speaker 2:Well, not a heckler On those shows in those days because of Phil Donnie, I believe, started this he'd go in the audience and he'd run around and people would ask questions. And she was not really listening to me. And she said I can't stand when all the gay people are hugging and kissing each other in front of us all the time. She says I have children and grandchildren, and this is basically. She was saying how inappropriate it was. And I said to her well, what about straight people? They do that all the time and she couldn't comprehend it.
Speaker 2:And then I finally said look, when your husband comes home from work, does he kiss you and say hello? And I just said well, why don't I have the same rights as you? And then I think she understood and there was applause. I have not seen a lot of gay people in my life and I've seen a lot of gay people perform any sexual act in front of a straight person. I've seen kisses, I've seen hugs, I've seen hand shaking, hand holding, anything you would see among straight people. So all I think is that we want to feel the same way, without a fear of violence.
Speaker 4:So how did this coming out of Victor?
Speaker 2:Completely different. You know, I came out before Rosie and Ellen and Ricky and Elton and Wanda and everybody you know Billy. So I really didn't have a template. There were a couple people, there was Kate Clinton and Robin Tyler and Michael Greer and some Bruce Valanche and I just I didn't have a template of how one would do this. So it gave me an identity, it gave me what I call semi-celebrity and notoriety and it got me a lot of work, headlining comedy clubs and guesting on TV sitcoms, playing the funny gay guy, and I had literally 10 different producers wanting to do series with me over the years. Never got a network deal, never got any money. Well, all my counterparts who I grew up with you know Drew Carey, damon Wayans, roseanne Barr, brett Butler they all got series and deals. Tim Allen, all my peers Does it happen for everybody?
Speaker 2:No, but I was quite popular. So it really what it does. Is it messes with your self-esteem? It messes with your reality. I remember Maria Cantone got a deal to play twins on a show but it never got made. I should have asked him when I had lunch with him once about that, but I forgot. But that's how it changed. And then, as the years went on and being gay on shows became a more common place. The sitcom sort of ended that kind of in the audience. So I changed and I went back to acting class and I started playing straight people and I got a guest star on the closer and I played a guy talk like this. And then I started going to class and working on different characters and got to play a slave owner and birth of a nation in a pretty big part and I was able to evolve to the character actor that I wanted to be in the beginning.
Speaker 4:Then what has been your favorite role?
Speaker 2:There's been so many. That's a heart. That's like children, I'd say. The one that meant the most to me was playing a white, heterosexual Christian plantation owner in 1831 in the film the Birth of a Nation starring, directed, produced and co-written by Nate Parker, about Nat Turner the Nat Turner story about the Black abolitionist. I played a plantation owner. There were three of us Jason Warner Smith and oh my God, I'm blanking on the other guy. He's pretty famous.
Speaker 2:He was in the Bad News Bears and got Oscar nominated for it was in Boo with Walter Moutha and Tata Moneal and he was just, oh, jack Earl Haley. There were three of us. It was rape, murder and torture. We were all terrible and I was rape and it was just. It didn't show it, but it showed the implications of it. And people say to me all the time were you proud of doing that part and how did you feel? And I said, look, I was there to help tell that story from the Black point of view by a lot of Black people who wrote, directed and were a part of this. So my job was to put their shoes on, shut up and listen, and I think that's something I learned very deeply in 2016 when the film came out and, as we did, publicity and stuff and went into HBO in 17 and 18 and now on Amazon and it's a brilliant film to see.
Speaker 2:It's called the Birth of a Nation. Starrs Penelope and Miller and Roger Gennifer Smith and Coleman Domingo and Gabrielle Union, and I was so proud to be in that film and it really gave me a whole new bunch of roles. I probably did 30 or 40 things. After that I had the biggest rush in my career that I'd ever had.
Speaker 4:I absolutely love Gabrielle.
Speaker 2:She was wonderful in the film. She had two small scenes and she didn't speak and she was brilliant.
Speaker 4:So, speaking of Amazon Prime, you have a show on her called Smothered. Can you talk about that?
Speaker 2:Smothered is the brainchild of myself and the talented, brilliantly talented Mitch Herra. It's about these two guys who have been in relationship 30 years, who hate each other but can't afford to get divorced, and I wanted to do something where I could create something where my part was larger, honestly and given me a chance to really work on my craft in between jobs and in between stand-up gigs. And I won the Best Actor Award at the Indie Series awards and we were nominated for Best New Series and we were nominated for the Queer Tea Awards and several other ones, and it was an incredible experience of learning about my craft and what I could do, the possibilities, and I still am doing that. I'm still learning more. And it's available on Amazon Prime, but it's also the best way. It's also on Apple TV and YouTube and Revry. Revry has been very kind to us and they put us on all these things and if you go to SmotheredTVcom you can watch both seasons. The second season just dropped this year.
Speaker 4:We're speaking with Jason Stewart, the hilarious out comedian who came out famously on the Harado River Revere show 30 years ago. So, jason, who is a comedy comedian that you look up to and then you analyze?
Speaker 2:You know, what's so interesting is I'm an actor first. So even though I got more famous for being a comedian, being an actor is my roots, so there's a lot of comedians I love. It's like when Barbara Streisand says I'm an actress first and a singer second. You know, though, she's more known for being a singer. So, with that said, I'd say Lily Tomlin has taken it to the to the edge in terms of character comedy.
Speaker 2:You know, dave Chappelle is certainly God, so controversial, in the same way that Lenny Bruce or Dick Gregory were Moms Mably I used to love. And a character comedian who was a lesbian, the late Louis Anderson, who wrestled so much with coming out when he was outed publicly and blackmailed and, you know, in such a wonderfully sweet man and gained such respect by playing his mom on that show basket. And Richard Lewis made me laugh my head off, being a Jew. There's a comedian named Lois Bromfield that never really got her due and she lives in Germany with her girlfriend and she does this. She's just one of the funniest people ever makes me laugh out loud. Who else do I love? You know, I love all the gals that everybody liked, like Kathy Griffin and Margaret Cho. Margaret's always been very kind and supportive. I just wish they would let me open for them.
Speaker 4:So what advice do you have to young comedians, slash actors that are coming up and that are not having to face the struggles of being in closet?
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, this is such a different time I'm almost the wrong person to ask, because I have such a different experience and I have so much trauma from it that as I get older that I'm, you know, actually learning how to change the paragon of how I think of things. You know, you have things happen to you and it sort of develops who you are and then you sort of drive down that street and now that street no longer exists. So I have to learn to change. So I'm probably not the right person, but I say number one learn your craft. You know that's really important. A lot of people will just get on YouTube or TikTok and do these one-minute things and you have to learn how to learn your craft as an actor. And the only way to really become a good comedian is to do the time and it's very difficult.
Speaker 2:Now I hear that they charge comedians to do shows and it's just there's not a lot of places. You know the comedy clubs are still 75% straight men, 25% women and everything else. You know it's still that when you see a show that's diverse in a comedy club, it's usually because it's produced by another comedian. And you know age, they don't. They're in Los Angeles and New York. I think they are on their knees to the fountain of youth. Always. It's always about young people. It's always about people under a certain age. I sound like a grouchy old man.
Speaker 4:I think it comes with the term territory as you get older. That's it, and we're about the same age.
Speaker 2:We are.
Speaker 4:Oh, I'm 49. I'm 49. Oh, wonderful, yes.
Speaker 2:I'll agree to that.
Speaker 4:So you famously organized the LGBT committee for the SAG Africa. Can you talk about that?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. So in 2004, I kept sending faxes to Melissa Gilbert at the time, who was the president, and never got any response. And then I again faxed the diversity department. Never got a response. And then I got a call from Duncan Crabtree, ireland, who has become my friend, who is now the CEO of SAG, after, at the time, he was the legal counsel. He called and said I'd like to talk to Jason Stewart and I was in a movie called the Day Without a Mexican and we were trying to get the money for residuals for that. And I thought it was the lawyer, because he said I'm the lawyer from this department and I didn't even listen to his name. And I said look, this has been going on for a whole year. We have to get this dead. And he said, jason, I'm not calling about that, I'm calling about your email, your fax. And he said we'd like to start a committee for the LGBTQ actors and or, at the time, lgbtq LGBT. We didn't have a queue then.
Speaker 2:It's so funny because the four people in the room were Anna Marie Johnson, black woman, sumi Haru, asian woman, and a person of age, alan Rosenberg, jewish, who was the president at the time, and Duncan Crabtree, ireland gay man who just got voted into the Out 100 this year and I was in the Out 100 last year. It took it only took 29 years, but I made it and that really was on my bucket list and really meant a lot to me because it was chosen by my peers, my gay brothers and sisters. So the committee, so the committee was the whole idea for the committee and I sort of came from being at Outfest all the time and going to see all the films there. I'd see all these out actors or closeted actors who were so afraid and had no place to go.
Speaker 2:And I guess, when Ziya Washington and a whole great anatomy thing that I would with TR Night, that they felt the need to have a committee, rather, and the diversity department felt the need to do that. And what was really interesting about it is that I only had two goals one to create opportunity so we could be compete equally and we're still working on that because I do believe that there's still a biased and and people who there's a lot of people who are straight liberal, people who don't feel that way. We can talk more about that. And then also to create a safe place to work so people are not bullied or teased or treated badly on the set. So those are the two goals that we work on constantly.
Speaker 4:So my final question for you is what is the most the thing in your career that you're the most proud of?
Speaker 2:Oh boy, that's really hard. There's so many things. I'd say that the thing I'm proud of the most these days is that I'm still here, is that I'm still and that I've been. I've been able to have opportunities, like I was up for Maestro, that film with Bradley Cooper, and that I, you know, I just did a special called Laugh Proud for Quentin Lee.
Speaker 2:That's gonna be, I guess, come out next year stand-up special with all these new gay and lesbian queer comedians, trans I didn't even know any of them that's how many there are, except for the host, jasmine, and Jasmine Creighton, and she and I worked together over the years. She was a drag performer and is now a transgender performer, so that I'm really proud of that. I'm still being asked to do that kind of stuff. I'm still doing my stand-up. I was just in Vegas in the same hotel as Barry Mandel. I had a headlining in the big room and I was headlining in the small room, so that was sort of cool. Two gay people in the hotel out, both of us out, and you know I'm still working, I'm still doing stuff that I care about.
Speaker 2:I have my show smothered, I have I did an episode of Goliath and the last seat is in the Billy Bob Thornton show and, yeah, I feel good about all this. You have any place to come to Houston. I would love it. Somebody who's listening to this book me. I would love to come back. I just oh, but I just did a show in Houston. What am I talking about? I just did the addicted to comedy, I just did it, and the theater there. Yeah, it just seems it's harder and harder to get the word out locally to people. It's it naturally. It's easy to do stuff, but it's harder locally the working people.
Speaker 2:Find out more information about Jason Stewart and the everything spends from going to my website, jason Stewart dot com. Stu a rt stew art, so you can have all my social media. I my personal page is loaded up it's over the five thousand, but you can follow me on that page or my fan page on Facebook. I'm on Instagram X. I'm on just what's the other one. I'm on Tumblr. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on everything I'll say have a YouTube page you have an only fans no, you know what's so interesting about that?
Speaker 2:the idea of being that public just does not interest me. But I know everybody wants to tell everything. Huh, there was one day, the other day, some poor guys, mother had passed away and literally two minutes after she did, he was doing it a Facebook post. I thought my god, the idea of that much information being given out in such a public way about things that are so personal and I'm not judging, I guess I am a little but the idea of that is just, oh, it's so, it's a little, it's a little too much for me. But I guess that's the world we're living in today. But Jason Stewart comm is where they can find it have any projects that are coming up?
Speaker 2:I have a film coming out called garlic parmesan and I played this dad who runs this terrible improv company in West Covina and the. The film is very much like Napoleon Dynamite. Of course, I've left proud next year. I have club dates all in California for the next month or so and I'm up for a couple things are waiting to hear when you, when you, compete at a higher level.
Speaker 2:That's why I was talking about microaggressions and the way people think of you in terms of your fame and notoriety. You know, as gay people or I consider myself a gay person, as a gay man, you know, since I didn't have the roots of the opportunities when I was younger, it's hard to compete at a equal level with my counterparts who've had opportunities that I didn't have. And also, you have to convince people that you can actually play straight people or different kinds of roles where I don't think straight people have the same judgment as they do on us still, and I don't think people even realize that they're doing it, and I learned that from my people of color brothers and sisters about microaggressions and what that does. So that's something I'm working on with the LGBTQ committee is more education, more openness and the idea that our success means the same as the success.
Speaker 4:We've been speaking with Jason Stewart. Jason, is there anything you want to listen to know before we go?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm single again. Oh my god, single at my age.
Speaker 4:You're like 46, 47.
Speaker 2:Oh you're too kind, I'll agree to that, but that that, that that age passed a long time ago, you know, but I don't want to say my age out loud, I'm still trying to deal with it with my own. We'll just call you Generation X. Is that what we know? Then we'll have to be with Eli Musk. Forget that.
Speaker 4:All right. Well, thank you for coming on, Jason.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, guys for your service to our community and thanks for wanting to have me on. I so appreciate it.
Speaker 4:This is Queer Voices.
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Speaker 8:Thank you, I'm Billum and you are listening to Queer Voices on KPFT. Today I am joined by the artistic director of Stages Theatre, ken McLaughlin. He has just opened a new thriller he directed called Switzerland. The play depicts a fantasy of celebrated Texan and crime novelist Patricia Highsmith in her dying days, haunted by a young publishing executive begging her to continue with her most famous creation, tom Ripley. Ironically, ken is set to leave Stages this year after 25 years of service leading the arts organization as a long time and we are here to talk about both intriguing situations today. So welcome Ken to Queer Voices.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's so great to be here, brett. Thank you so much, really excited to have the conversation Well let's start with you telling us a little bit about Switzerland.
Speaker 8:What can an audience expect from this show?
Speaker 3:The unexpected. I really I've been talking about the show. I'm always really careful about not to give too many threads away. There's this great line in the show where Patricia Highsmith the kind of subject of the evening, if you will says to Edward, the man who comes to visit her. He says she says talking about her writing. It's not my job to pass judgment, it's my job to persuade.
Speaker 3:The reader takes sides, and in this case the audience takes sides. So or the audience is left to kind of put the puzzles together the way they want to play kind of works, a little bit as a almost like choose your own adventure, choose your own thriller kind of moment, because you can interpret based on the way you're seeing things, based on all your hearing things, based on the things land for you. There could be several different ways in which you're viewing display. That's that's kind of its point, that's kind of excitement that it generates and and I love that about it. So you know it's really it's about the creative process, it's about facing our demons, it's about what truly scares us, what motivates us and what happens when you take a risk and let the unknown stranger into your life, and that's a pretty scary concept.
Speaker 8:It was interesting. I saw it the other night and I was expecting something from the marketing and the things that I've seen, almost like a misery scenario where, like, an author is being forced to continue her famous work or something like, and it hit me that it's not, that it is so much more psychological and so much more about the arts of writing and anybody that knows highsmiths writing or is a fan of Thomas Ripley they are gonna enjoy the heck out of this. I think anybody that's written anything is gonna immediately feel something and I think, just generally an audience. It's a fascinating portrait of two people kind of trusting and mistrusting each other and equal doses. I think it's a brilliant and I don't want to call it a thriller, I think it's more of a chiller.
Speaker 3:Once I got into it I really started to allow myself to be influenced more by Hitchcock. You know, patricia Highsmith Hitchcock loved Patricia Highsmith Hitchcock. She did Strangers on a Train, he did the film early film. Like early parts of their career blend together and they of course become both of them iconic figures in their disciplines and there's just something about his, her style and his style that made sense for me as I was thinking about how to frame that, the scenes, or how to let the beats play out, or how to make things.
Speaker 3:You know how to hold attention or how to stretch the tension, and so I think it's I love that you said that chiller, because that's I think that's more my approach as well like it's a long slow burn and then it really heats up, kind of thing. But it's one of those things that if you engage and if you allow it to really work on your senses, it's an intellectual exercise on many levels, but it's also it becomes very visceral as the evening goes on and that's very that's to me, that's very Hitchcockian. You know, you're using the art form and you're celebrating art while you're watching the thing and then suddenly you realize, oh wow, this other thing is happening, or or this other dangerous thing may happen, and and so it's that kind of quality that I think especially Joanne Marie Smith, the playwright, got really right. She had Heisman's style right, but I do think it's a little bit of an homage to Hitchcock as well in there.
Speaker 8:I'm in terms of the way in which the story is told you cast Sally Edmondson, who is a very likable actress and you work with her a lot over the years. The distinctly unlikable figure, but there's a Hicksman. That means she is, I mean, heisman. She is a piece of work and she has some very radical views and particularly not so great qualities. So how the heck did you end up casting Sally Edmondson in this role?
Speaker 3:It's so funny, you know. I mean I think that was actually the point was that Sally and I had done so many things together and this is the this is what I finally realized for myself to talking about a little bit is that I actually gravitate toward hope, that I'm a naturally hopeful glass half full guy and and I'm naturally inclined to think about the promise of things and so to actually work on a piece that's completely opposite. This is not a glass out, this is a glass empty human who looks at life really as the darkest of life, and I thought I didn't realize how, what the price of exploring that was going to be as an artist. But I do, I'm selling my talk and I said let's try, like, let's go do this new place together, and it's been really interesting. I mean, patricia Highsmith is a truly unlikable human being, you know, and, interestingly enough, when I think about the queer experience, they know this this incredibly influential lesbian writer I mean, she wrote Price of Saul, you know, one of the most influential queer books that exists, and especially for its time.
Speaker 3:And yet there was almost a self-loathing there that sits in there, her own, her own. So many demons that the racial stuff that, oh my goodness, the anti-semitism I mean, and, and I think, the homophobia, you know. I think there's a real self self-hatred sitting in there's. Some people will critique it that way, but she doesn't. She says no, it's not that, it's that, this is just who I am. It's actually an embrace of a different side of humanity. So so, in order to play that, in order to make her a person that you can watch all my walk, that's where I had to really go. I had to embrace and find the way to embrace these things that are, that are dark and harder to embrace, and especially when I think about, as a queer person, embracing the times on my own fears or my own sense of homophobia has entered in my life. How do I fight that? Make sure that never gets part of my, my life right, and I think that struggle is a little bit of it's in there.
Speaker 8:It's in there tell me a little bit about the actor playing opposite her, ian James. We've seen him before at stages in 2019, sex with strangers, and he's a very different. I want to say energy, that means Sally, so what attracted you to cast him across from her?
Speaker 3:casting that role was really hard because it's a pretty complicated role, not only because what it has to accomplish throughout the show, but it really is. His core kind of kind of motif in the show is transformation. How do we transform ourselves, how do we claim the facades or the identities that we need to navigate the world? And so it takes an actor who can really themselves build and stack the kind of changes that Edward goes through as the play progresses and it eventually ends up being who he is by the end of the play. There's all sorts of different ways you can look at that. There's different ways you can make choices about the play, especially Patricia as the writer. Is this a reflection of her? Is it for psyche? What is it? And so Ian was the one who came into the audition and just had a drive. That was just it. Just I could take my eyes off. What the drive like? Like what's he really at? Like the question he raised more questions than he answered and that's what. That's what I really liked in the audition.
Speaker 3:But he also had the real chemistry with Sally and that's absolutely critical. You're gonna watch these people for two hours. They. There has to be chemistry. There has to be a sense that that anything can happen. They could, they, you know, they could spark. Play can go this direction, play go in this direction. There could be a. What could the spark be? You know, you always have to believe, like your next, to matches and gasoline, and so I found that when I put the two of them together there were other, different combinations in the auditions. I thought, well, that's interesting, that's really interesting. But then when Ian came out like that there's that and that's what I think it is, and I think the matches gasoline thing is a pretty good way of looking you know you must be psychic a little bit because you answered my next question for you about the sexuality of the characters.
Speaker 8:I mean, you know, patricia Hightsmith is famous out in proud lesbian and was in the 50s and 60s when that was not cool and she'd never apologized for it. She was absolutely open about it and the character that Ian actually plays his sexuality is somewhat questionable as well. There's almost a queer vibe to the entire show, even though it's not overtly about anything, maybe romantic with them or anything like that. It's very interesting how that interplays and you could almost make the case that it's about homophobia on both sides of that. Quite no weird way.
Speaker 3:Oh, 100%, 100% and it's very much. I mean, that's what really intrigued me, because the question becomes I think one of the questions becomes what is the price that anyone pays when they are not authentically themselves? You know, and this is a big question for us as poor people, right, Especially through the whole process of our lives. You know, I'm a person who definitely believes coming out is not a thing you do once, it's a thing you have to embrace as a practice in your life, you know, and what is the price if we don't do that? I think it's kind of one of the themes with these characters. I mean, you know, he has such a response when she approaches a sexual identity.
Speaker 3:And there's a really interesting thing about this in the script that I was a little troubled by and I really wanted to explore it with the actors, which is they use the word, she uses the word sexual preference and he says sexual preference, that preference. I always have an issue with that for myself, because preference applies choice, and that's not my experience. But I do think the playwright is very aware that she could have used the word orientation or a different word, but she chose that word because she's going after the way in which she chooses to navigate the world. She's not. It's not the sexual identity that's her issue. It's the fact that he doesn't present or doesn't choose to embrace a sexual expression. That's what she's at, and so I think that becomes the deeper question about how gay people navigate the world and how these two particular one, an open lesbian one wrestling navigate these moments together.
Speaker 8:It's a fascinating show and I want to remind everybody, switzerland runs through November 12th at stages, and meanwhile, right across the hall is another show that you directed. Could not be more different in tone Always, patsy Klein. That show has been extended through the end of the year. So now officially, in the Gordy complex of stages, two out of the three spaces there are Ken McLaughlin shows. What a fitting end to your era. Why did you do Patsy Klein this year?
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, I'm so in love with that play. I love that play. I really do. I've loved it for years and that was something I knew in my last season. I really wanted to. I wanted to come back to it one more time.
Speaker 3:What I love about that play is what it says about female friendship. There's something so completely right about it and the women that I've had an incredible honor to work with over the years to really open that up and I think in this particular production we've cracked that in the deepest way I've ever experienced with Kelly Peters and Holland Barber playing these, you know, louise and Patsy this iconic thing for the stages audience and then deepening it because the two actors themselves are such good friends. So the palpable sense of these women going through this special moment together is very unique in this production. So I'm really, really happy to be revisited. I'm really happy to have to also have that just out. You know, shining there as this chapter in my life comes, starts to close. I'm just really honored by it. I'm really happy with that production. I'm glad it's going on.
Speaker 8:It's celebrating a big anniversary, isn't it? It's like a 35th anniversary.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 35 years ago at stages.
Speaker 8:Yeah, and it's got a longer history here at Houston than you do at stages. Yes, it does, yes, it does. Let's talk a little bit about your impending exit a little. And what stages is all about? Just think about stages as something different in the theater scene here in Houston. So I wanted it to get your take on it. What do you and your company bring to Houston that's unique in theatrical arts?
Speaker 3:You know, I think it's ultimately the word that always comes to my heart is intimacy. I think that people feel a really personal connection to what it is that we do, One because they're really close to it. But if you're coming year over year and you're that close, you're looking into the actor's eyes, Like this has become the way in which people really experience stages. I've heard people say that over and over again to really sit that close and to look into their eyes and to see, just to see that up close and to see the kind of authenticity of performance that we are known for, that close, is really meaningful for our audiences. So I think that's part of it and I think also we lean into.
Speaker 3:We also lean into the kind of personal connection like really elevating that, really extending and intentionally working on welcome for all people, like really intentionally going after that day in and day out. So I think those practices, I think we feel like a warm space that really does think about the circle. You know it's not art on one side and the audience on one and just look at it. Look at it, it's a circle of communication. That's how we talk about it, that's what it means to me and I think that we work really hard to manifest that reality. So I think that's been part of it.
Speaker 8:I can tell you there's nothing quite like seeing Sally up close, and it's sort of like Switzerland, or Ian, you know, or the Caspatic line. It's amazing to be that close. I don't think that you can get that at the alley, I don't think you can get that at Tuts. So it really is a unique venue and a way of presenting theater that I think is amazing to see. You know, in Switzerland we see a writer that's haunted by her artistic legacy, the last show that you've chosen to direct here, which may be a scary editorial on you. What is going to haunt, ken, after you leave stages? Or rather you? Know you're out Wow.
Speaker 3:It's uh, you know it's funny because, yeah, I mean, it is about an artist dealing wrestling with their legacy. It's about an artist figuring out how, how they've been critiqued, how they've been seen, how they've been judged, have they done this? So I, you know, I was aware of that while I was, there were times. There were times where stuff which is really resonated, I'd be like, oh well work on the play.
Speaker 3:Don't don't let that in or don't don't take that into far. Um gosh, you know, I I really do. I honestly hope that people say I really do, hope that people say that I was kind. That's what I really. That matters a lot to me and I hope they will reflect on on what the work meant to them. I hope that's true and um, especially for all of us in the queer community, I truly, truly hope that the queer community can look towards stages and see that um that there were so many moments of um expression that was for us.
Speaker 3:You know, um I may have been doing stuff for a lot of, a lot of people and we have a very big audience of stages, but I was always thinking about how it worked for us. Um, what does this mean for me as a gay man? What does this mean for our community? I'm so proud of some of the things we did that really did that Great gardens or road show or up to you know, the, the two drag um rep that we just did, I mean, and so many others through the years. I'm just so grateful that I was always supported in the platform to be authentically myself and to celebrate, um, our community. That means a lot to me and I hope that people will look and say, wow, um, that was a nice integration of communities at stages.
Speaker 8:Well, ironically, a lot like Patricia Heismith, you are planning on walking off the stage, heading to Ireland to write, so tell me how that happened and how that came to be.
Speaker 3:Well, covid, you know, remember that pandemic, and we were all in our houses and we were like, what should I do? Well, mine became ancestrycom. I became obsessed with the puzzle of my life, of my history, of my family. Obsessed Because it was a puzzle and it was amazing to watch that puzzle come together and really learn the depths of some stories that had just been floating in my head and really learned their truth. And I felt, as that work progressed, I really felt calling to understand myself and my place in the world, and even more deeply, and so traveling to Ireland and then suddenly falling in love with Ireland so deeply and legitimately, feeling called to be there and to see what happens next.
Speaker 3:So I don't know if it'll be right. I mean, I think it'll be righting. I don't know for sure it'll be righting. Writing is hard, man, you know it's really hard. And just doing a play where a writer talks about how hard it is to write and what it really takes to surely do that work, I don't know. It's not that I want to do something hard, I just want to see what the universe is calling me to do next, and so I'm kind of open to that, you're taking your entire family with you, obviously.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and the cats yeah. So that's the family. We're all going home, yes exactly.
Speaker 8:How did you meet Brad?
Speaker 3:How did I meet Brad? Oh, my goodness, absolutely great story. In a bar in Chicago in 1989, I actually was I went from one bar where I met this guy who said I'll meet you in an hour at this other bar. Go wait there. And so I went to the other bar waiting to meet this guy that they had a crush on for a very long period of time, and Brad walked in the bar, or I walked in the bar, brad was in front of me. I asked him, I pushed him aside to get out of my way, and I looked back and I thought he was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen in my life and he still is. And yeah, we met about 10 minutes later and we have been together since 1989, july 14th.
Speaker 9:So it was one of, and I never saw the other guy again.
Speaker 3:So yeah that happened.
Speaker 8:How does he handle? I always hear people talk about this theater widow syndrome. Artists get involved with production, like you just did with Switzerland, and you disappear for like a month and a half. Does he handle that well or?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, well, the early part of our career Brad was a flight attendant, so the early part of my career and I was directing a lot, so we got very used to the patterns of our lives together relatively early in our relationship, which made it really helpful as we started to spend more time together and living together and all the things. But, yeah, he's completely used to it. He also knows when I'm in rehearsal, especially if I'm having a struggle to just why. Just yeah, we know how to navigate each other's spaces when we're, and he's an incredibly gifted human being, but he's not. He would not define himself as a creative human being. So he gets to be my rock and I get to do the thing and that's been amazing.
Speaker 8:You know, for me, stages has always presented edgy shows that deal with all communities, whether it be gay, straight, different ethnicities. How did you pick shows to produce as an artistic director? I mean, your shows, your seasons, were just this eclectic assortment of different things. Did you have a mission or like a mastermind plan in all these years?
Speaker 3:No, I love all theater. I'm like a child when it comes to theater. I just I will go see it anywhere anytime. I do not bring filters in the room. I don't think, oh, this person's this, or like, I just love it. I had, years ago, someone invited me to a community theater and I said, oh, where's Elcom? And they were so blown away that I was going, and then they treated me like well, I'm like, stop it, I'm just here to see your play, you know, and I loved it. I love all theater. So, and I love all different kinds of theater. It's not all the same, and I just think it.
Speaker 3:I think theater has been so commodified and our capacities to engage in it have been oppressed, and you know, we gotta get all this stuff out of the way. Just come and see and love theater, you know, and that's always been my thing. So if there's been an eclectic season and there's been a lot of them, you know, it really is about opening our minds to the different kinds of expressions and the roller coaster of life, if you will, that is being reflected to you. And then I will say that recently, you know, since 2018, we've I've been working with a season selection committee, so anyone on our staff can be on it in any position of power. That circle now is huge.
Speaker 3:There's about 24 people who read plays along with me and we talk about them. At the end of the day, I picked them, I curated them, I put them together, but it's so incredibly helpful to have other voices in the room saying, hey, did you think about this, or maybe we need to think about this, or are we looking at this in the right way, or whatever it is, really questioning the work that we're doing, and so that, to me, has made it 10 times more exciting than it had been. You know me sitting alone in my office reading plays. It's really a. It's an inclusive process and, at the end of the day, it's an impulsive process. Like I trust my instinct, is this the right moment for this and see how it goes?
Speaker 8:It's interesting. I feel like that every theater in Houston right now is facing something new, and I wanted to get your take on that. What challenges are facing Houston theater just as a whole and stages in particular? If you want to address that as well, what is it that we have to overcome right now?
Speaker 3:The reality of the pandemic is everyone's behavior changed, everyone's patterns of life changed, and our industry was set up on a whole set of patterns, be it the subscription model, be it the way in which you buy tickets, be it the way our weekends work, all of whatever it was. And you know, all of those things were a marketplace that we understood or that we could navigate and leverage to our advantage, and all of that is different. All of that is different. The way in which people are drawn to things we're competing with every kind of streaming service you can imagine. The way in which people are excited about something seems to be more what we could tell, more event-based than it is a pattern or a series of stories. This is a very different landscape and it's a very different landscape for all of us.
Speaker 3:So seeing the audience come back, our audience is definitely transferring, I'd say, where stages has, you know the challenges, is feeling this heat, and interesting enough stages story is. You know we were only in Gordy for seven weeks before the pandemic hit. We shut down after seven weeks, so we never even got. We had so much momentum moving into the building but we never got the chance to even find out what that momentum was gonna mean and so then, so you see, you see us going this way with a lot more seats, but then you see audiences going that way right. So ours becomes a really unique dual challenge.
Speaker 3:I would say the advantage to a certain extent we've had is stages has been working so hard for so long and so intentionally on diversifying our audience and especially really working to make sure that we were working with younger populations and seeing that demographic, age, demographic. So we are seeing a surge of younger and newer audiences and very diverse audience. So we are seeing that pay off. So we are seeing the change and you come to stages, you can feel it, you can see it, you can feel the energy in the lobby. You know, I think changing then, kind of traditional European white theater. That's our real opportunity ahead. I think every one of us, every theater in town and every theater in the country, you have to look. This is a moment of really examining what it is you stand for what it is. You want to stand for what it is you want to do for the next decade of theater goers and then make those connections and make it happen.
Speaker 8:Because we're listening to queer voices right now and I've had some experience with gay theater in particular, and I'm gonna get your take on the state of gay theater because I feel like there's not as much of it as there used to be. I feel like it's kind of morphed a little bit. We don't have those direct pieces talking to us like angels in America and in the big renaissance of gay theater and things like that. What do you feel like the importance of gay theater is now? Where do you think it's coming from? Where is it going to?
Speaker 3:If anything, if you look at it, it's somewhat commodified Like everything else. Eventually it becomes mainstream or becomes something that we, you know. So I think some of the I mean angels is a unique thing because it's such a unique, amazing property. It's amazing like it's just the thing, right. But other stuff, you know the day in Houston when there were several gay theaters doing very specific gay work and very expressive, and you don't see that. But what I and you don't see that. A lot of places really, you know.
Speaker 3:But I feel like there's a renaissance coming here as well. I think there's a renaissance coming in and in fact, the lighting designer for Switzerland, destiny Smith, is our first trans lighting designer. Destiny did an amazing job. She's done our staff at Stages and she and I have been having conversations for oh gosh, months now. She wants you know she, her dream is to have a trans theater here at Houston and to really get that to happen. She says these scripts, we're investigating stuff. I'm supporting every one of those dreams for her and there's a circle, a whole circle of trans artists who are in our orbit right now and Destiny's kind of the leader in getting something to happen there. I think that would be incredibly exciting for Houston and, incredibly, there's an incredible rich opportunity for that to happen. That's why I'm cheering and championing her on. So I do think, I do think, you know, out of any trouble time comes light, right, you know? I think there's some bright opportunities there as well in terms of queer expression and in terms of queer connection.
Speaker 8:Well, can you give me a great idea of my next guest on Queer Voices? Destiny, start getting your-. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:Ready.
Speaker 8:Yeah ready.
Speaker 8:Exactly, you are listening to Queer Voices and we are talking with Ken McLaughlin, who is the Artistic Director for Stages Houston. I wanted to thank you for being on Queer Voices today. You're reigning at Stages as Artistic Director. Your time here has meant so much to our community. I think, like I've told you personally before, some of my earliest memories of gay plays and things that addressed our community were actually at Stages and it was such an important place for me over the years to see that. And when we talk about intimacy and community and things like that, it's what it gave our community. Is that intimacy to see ourselves portrayed, and we thank you for the 25 years of everything you brought, whether it be gay, straight, Latinx, all of the different things that you've championed at Stages. We definitely appreciate it and thank you for talking to us today.
Speaker 10:I'm Michael LeBeau and I'm Melanie Keller with News Wrap, a summary of some of the news in or affecting LGBTQ communities around the world for the week ending November 4, 2023. Jamaica's Supreme Court is leaving the Caribbean nation stuck with its British colonial-era anti-queer sex laws. The justices unanimously upheld the inherited buggery laws in an October 27 ruling based on constitutional revisions approved by the Jamaican Parliament in 2011. Those revisions prohibit the court from examining the constitutionality of the Offence Against the Person Act, the law that covers private consensual adult same-gender sex. Long-time Jamaican activist, Maurice Tomlinson, challenged those statutes in 2015. He claimed that they violate his right to privacy and their right to protection from inhumane or degrading punishment or other treatment.
Speaker 10:Tomlinson now lives in Canada with his husband. He wrote on his Facebook page following the ruling, Thankful for the privilege of living in a country where my love isn't illegal. Still, he's continuing to press for change in his homeland. He told the Washington Blade that he can appeal the ruling to the Jamaican Court of Appeal and then to the Privy Council in London. Jamaica won its independence from the UK in 1962 and the Privy Council is a special appeals court for British territories, but it still hears Jamaican appeal challenges A referendum to officially remove the British monarch as Jamaica's titular head of state is expected next year.
Speaker 11:Hungary's far-right Christian nationalist government is protecting young people from the World Press Photo Exhibition, the Hungarian National Museum and Budapest stopped selling tickets to the traveling exhibition to visitors under the age of 18 on October 28. German officials saw dangerous queer content in a set of five photos by Filipina photojournalist Hannah Reyes Morales. They portray a community of elderly LGBTQ people in the Philippines who live together and care for each other. Some of them are shown wearing makeup and dressed in drag.
Speaker 11:Prime Minister Viktor Orban's compliant lawmakers banned the display and promotion of homosexuality in books and media in 2021. Earlier this year, some Hungarian booksellers were fined for selling books with homosexual content because they were not plastic-wrapped as required by law. To World Press Photo Executive Director, jumana Elzane Kuri, it's mind-boggling. She told the Associated Press that the photos are so positive, so inclusive, that the exhibit's first censorship in Europe shocked us terribly. It's no shock for Orban to be at odds with the European Union over Hungary's repressive, anti-democratic, anti-human rights record. Reyes Morales said in an emailed statement to AP that the subjects in her photographs are icons and role models in the LGBTQ Filipino community who are not dangerous or harmful. In her words, she's beyond saddened that their story is being kept in a shadow.
Speaker 10:I'm here to explain to all my friends. Taiwan's Vice President Laicinta was among an estimated 180,000 celebrants at this year's Taipei Pride March on October 28. That makes him the first senior government leader to attend the event in person. He told the Pride crowd that equal marriage is not the end. It's the starting point for diversity. This year's Pride theme was recognizing the diversity of every person and respecting and accepting different gender identities. Laicinta is favored to succeed President Tsai Ing-wen in next year's national elections. He marched with his ruling Democratic Progressive Party contingent behind a banner that read Democracy Supports Gays. Parade watchers could be heard shouting Hello, mr President, over the upbeat music blasting for the usual drag queens and scantily clad dancers. President Tai posted her message of support for this year's celebration on her Facebook page. Lgbtq advocacy groups generally say that the rights of transgender people are at the top of the current queer political agenda in Taiwan.
Speaker 11:While they were marching in Taipei, johannesburg's 34th annual Pride March was also in the streets. They were not just marching for South Africa. Organizers dedicated their parade to LGBTQ plus Ugandans and all Africans who cannot march for themselves. 25-year-old gay Ugandan refugee, mandela Swally, led the estimated 24,000 people to Joe Berg's Wanderer Stadium Adorned in glitter and waving a Ugandan flag. He was forced to flee his homeland after being arrested for having sex with his boyfriend. Uganda's horribly repressive Anti-Homosexuality Act that punishes some forms of same-gender sex with death was enacted earlier this year. Swally told reporters this is the space and this is the family I deserve to have. Right now I feel like I'm at home. While South Africa was the first on the continent to open civil marriage to same-gender couples, anti-queer discrimination and violence persists. Pride parade organizer Kay Alley told radio host Bongani Bingua we are very far from creating an inclusive society where children, the youth and adults are totally accepted for their authentic self.
Speaker 10:In other news, idaho's school bathroom bill is on hold again. This is the ninth US Circuit Court of Appeals. The legislation would deny trans students and school staff the use of sex-segregated campus facilities that match their gender identity. A federal court temporarily blocked enforcement of the law in August, but Chief US District Judge David Nye lifted the injunction in October after deciding that neither side had proven its case. The ninth Circuit Appeals Court reinstated the injunction before the law was to take effect on November 2. The queer advocacy group Lambda Legal is challenging the law, along with two private law firms. Their press release explains that the temporary injunction will stay in place until the justices review the likelihood of the plaintiff's success, which is expected to happen over the next few months. Lambda Legal represents a seventh grade transgender student known by the pseudonym Rebecca Rowe and the Sexuality and Gender Alliance at Boise High School. The state's conservative Christian Idaho Family Policy Center helped write the law.
Speaker 11:The previously little-known new speaker of the US House of Representatives has a wealth of truly offensive anti-queer skeletons in his closet. Republican Mike Johnson's far-right white Christian nationalist past and present are giving intrepid researchers a field day. Johnson once worked for the Alliance Defending Freedom, which has repeatedly advocated against LGBTQ equality and bodily autonomy. The Southern Poverty Law Center labels it the hate group. Johnson's wife, Kelly, is the owner and CEO of Onward Christian Counseling Services, which promotes medically debunked conversion therapy. A Huffington Post investigation found a mission statement posted on the organization's website that states we believe, and the Bible teaches, that any form of sexual immorality, such as adultery, fornication, homosexuality, bisexual conduct, bestiality, incest, pornography or any attempt to change one's sex or disagreement with one's biological sex is sinful and offensive to God. The website magically disappeared soon after husband Mike's selection to be House Speaker. Cnn uncovered more damning statements that Mr Johnson once made to a podcaster that underscore his supposedly Bible-based political agenda.
Speaker 5:Our race, the size of our feet, the color of our eyes these are things we're born with and we cannot change. But what these adult advocacy groups like the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network are promoting is a type of behavior. Homosexual behavior is something you do, it's not something that you are.
Speaker 9:Many historians those who are objective would give some credit to the fall of Rome, to not only the deprivation of the society and the loss of morals, but also to the rampant homosexual behavior that was condoned by the society.
Speaker 11:Meanwhile, the Republicans fiddled while the planet burns.
Speaker 10:Finally, US Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg has a way of dealing with anti-queer politicians, like House Speaker Mike Johnson. Pete and his husband Chaston recently celebrated his fifth wedding anniversary. The couple is raising twin toddlers. He had a ready response on November 2 when the host of CBS TV's Late Show with Stephen Colbert asked so how do you work with a guy who argued that same-sex relations are the dark harbinger of chaos and sexual anarchy that could doom even the strongest republic?
Speaker 6:Maybe we'll just have him over, because our little house isn't that far from the Capitol. And if he could see what it's like when I come home from work and Chaston's bringing the kids home from daycare or vice versa, and one of us is getting the mac and cheese ready and they won't take their shoes off and one of them needs a diaper change. Everything about that is chaos, but nothing about that is dark. The love of God is in that house.
Speaker 11:That's News Wrap, global queer news with attitude For the week ending November 4, 2023, follow the news in your area and around the world. An informed community is a strong community.
Speaker 10:News Wrap is written by Greg Gordon, edited by Lucia Chappelle, produced by Brian DeShazer and brought to you by you.
Speaker 11:Thank you. Help keep us in ears around the world at thiswayoutorg, where you can also read the text of this newscast. Much more For this Way Out. I'm Melanie Keller. Stay healthy.
Speaker 10:And I'm Michael LeBeau. Stay safe.
Speaker 1:This has been Queer Voices, which is now a home produced podcast and available from several podcasting sources. Check our webpage QueerVoicesorg for more information. Queer Voices executive producer is Brian Levinca. Andrew Edmanson and Deborah Moncrief Bell are frequent contributors. The News Wrap segment is part of another podcast called this Way Out, which is produced in Los Angeles.
Speaker 7:Some of the material in this program has been edited to improve clarity and runtime. This program does not endorse any political views or animal species. Views, opinions and endorsements are those of the participants and the organizations they represent. In case of death, please discontinue use and discard remaining products.
Speaker 1:For Queer Voices. I'm Glenn Holt.
