July 8th - Queer Means Everyone with Reverend Neil G. Thomas, LITTLE HOUSE with Lee Ingalls, and Rhys Carr from MOULIN ROUGE

In this episode, Brett Cullum talks with Reverend Neil G. Thomas, the Senior Pastor of Cathedral of Hope of Dallas, about an editorial published in the NY TIMES slamming the word QUEER by Matthew Vines. Then author R. Lee Ingalls speaks about what it's like being related to Laura Ingalls Wilder now that Netflix is rebooting LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRAIRIE. And finally, Rhys Carr reveals what it is like to be non-binary and on tour with MOULIN ROUGE.  

Cathedral of Hope: 

https://www.cathedralofhope.com/

R. Lee Ingalls: 

https://www.outsmartmagazine.com/2020/11/picking-up-where-little-house-left-off/

MOULIN ROUGE at the HOBBY CENTER: 

https://houston.broadway.com/shows/moulin-rouge-the-musical-2/

Queer Voices airs in Houston Texas on 90.1FM KPFT and is heard as a podcast here.  Queer Voices hopes to entertain as well as illuminate LGBTQ issues in Houston and beyond.  Check out our socials at:

https://www.facebook.com/QueerVoicesKPFT/ and
https://www.instagram.com/queervoices90.1kpft/

Transcript

Welcome And What’s Ahead

Brett 0:01

Welcome to Queer Voices on KPFT Houston, and also as a podcast out there in the digital realm. I am Brett Cullen, and in this edition I talked to Reverend Neil D. Thomas, the senior pastor of Cathedral of Pope of Dallas, about an editorial that was published in the New York Times, slamming the word queer. It seems Matthew Vines has come out as gay, but not queer, and in the process alienated a lot of the community. We are proud to be queer voices because we think it encompasses everyone. After that, I talk with author Arlie Ingalls about what it's like to be related to Laura Ingalls-Wilder now that a new Netflix series is rebooting Little House on the Prairie. And finally, I talk with Reese Carter about what it's like to be a non-binary performer in the tour of Boulan Rouge, which hits the Hobby Center July 14th as part of the Broadway at the Hobby Center series. Queer Voices, we include everyone, all the letters, and we start now.

The New York Times Op-Ed Spark

Brett 1:05

Hi there, this is Brett Cullum, and on June 30th, Matthew Vines published an editorial in the New York Times saying that he doesn't like using the word queer over being called gay. Now, Matthew wrote a book called God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships. He grew up in Wichita and moved to Dallas. And today I am joined by Reverend Neil G. Thomas. He is the senior pastor of Cathedral Hope of Dallas. And we're going to talk about words and why they matter. So thank you, Neil, for being here.

SPEAKER_04 1:36

I'm grateful to be here, Brett.

Brett 1:37

Thank you very much indeed for the invitation. Well, tell me a little bit about you and what you do first so that we get some context of who Neil Thomas is.

Neil Thomas And Faith Background

SPEAKER_04 1:47

Well, as you can probably tell from my accent, I wasn't raised in Dallas. I'm actually from the United Kingdom. Was raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Mormon tradition. And my mom and dad got divorced when I was two years old, and my mom got the church and dad didn't. And so we were raised one of seven kids in the Mormon tradition. I I I tell that as a context because we left the Mormon tradition, but not because I came out as a gay man, but because my mom wanted to remarry and he was not a Mormon. I realized at a very early age, probably around seven, eight, nine years of age, that the church could be wrong. And that was a very valuable lesson for when I later came out as a gay man. We'd left the Mormon tradition and but I never left my faith. And my faith remained with me. I went to seminary when I was 18, graduated when I was 23, and became a pastor in the United Kingdom. And for the last 30-something years now, I've I've pastored predominantly LGBT congregations or congregations that were made up or founded in the LGBT movement.

Brett 2:48

And your current congregation is large.

SPEAKER_04 2:54

We're about 4,000 members, roughly about a thousand on a Sunday morning. And so yeah, it's uh it's a great, a great congregation. And uh in the in the middle of the Bible belt has been here for 56 years now.

Brett 3:06

You know, it's always a struggle to retain your spirituality when you enter the queer community. There's a lot of trepidation about that. So it's always great to see somebody who's really retained their faith and and made it a practice. So very interesting. But now tell me a little bit about how you came to be aware of Matthew Vines and why he's kind of a voice that that we know about.

SPEAKER_04 3:27

Yeah, Matthew wrote uh an amazing book. It was a transformational book called God and the Gay Christian. And, you know, he comes from a more evangelical background. Those of us who have perhaps been more mainline, a little ahead of the evangelical church, certainly have done a lot of work around the the six clover passages that are often used and quoted by scripture. And Matthew wrote this uh incredible book that you know I've referenced on many, many occasions and have used in in classes and seminaries, building on a lot of the work that had been done before, but using this within an evangelical context, which has certainly helped many, many people to be able to reconcile their sexuality and their faith and to a broader understanding of what it means to be God and the gay Christian. And it's been a revolutionary book. He released a subsequent version of that book, I think just in the last year or so, and has led what's called the Reformation Project, which has also had its own evolution over the many years, you know, uh talking about side A and side B and working with evangelical churches and that evangelical space to help people reconcile their their sexuality and their spirituality. It's a it's an amazing piece of work. And Matthew has contributed quite widely to helping to create and heal those, that that divide.

Why “Queer” Feels Threatening

Brett 4:43

Yeah. Well, this piece for the New York Times, the title of it is I'm gay, not queer, it matters. And in it, in essence, he's saying that the queer is a word that we should avoid because it undermines his sense of same-sex marriage rights, that conservative Christians are going to use the inclusiveness of that term to take some rights back from the community. And what is it that makes that such a loaded opinion? And why is it kind of like not something that we really should reconcile at this point?

SPEAKER_04 5:14

Well, yeah, I think that's that's a an interesting question, Brett. And of course, you know that the article itself has caused quite a lot of contra controversia and and c and conversation, and probably a very valuable conversation to be had. Matthew can certainly speak for himself, and and you know, if he'd just used I statements throughout this entire piece, probably would not have had such a reaction. But what it appears to be is that he is drawing some lines around who is in and who is out, what should be included and what is not included. And I think that that is problematic because there is a reality that for many of us, myself included, that the use of the word queer is not something that perhaps was used in the 50s, 60s, but really has taken on a definition of understanding queer and queerness as those of us who have done the work of standing against a a dominant culture, standing against a binary system that led to the exclusion of LGBT people in the church in the first place. And that whilst I I understand that there that there has been a shift recently, especially here in the United States, about the ways in which marriage equality is being viewed amongst the evangelical tradition, the reality is that that was going to happen regardless of what words we used. Anyone who has observed liberation movements understands that the pendulum often gets swung in the other direction when rights are being achieved and and movement continues to happen. But to try to symbolize that or just to m suggest that somehow this use of the word queer is the reason for that is very problematic. When when I understand, and and I think most of us who are the beneficiaries of those who led the queer movement and gay liberation movements completely understand that anything that wants us to be respectable or quiet or silenced will never bring about liberation. It will never bring about full inclusion. And that once a movement is on its way, one has to embrace that these movements have always sought to break down the very systems that were used to shut us out. And that just using the word gay, which of course doesn't include lesbians and bisexuals and the other parts of our alphabet, suddenly says that it's on my terms only. And Matthew and I have benefited from the work of people who have, we've stand on their shoulders, who have always blurred those lines and moved those lines forward. And so I think that this has been I think I think that Matthew's buying into respectability and assimilation, which is never about movement.

Brett 7:52

Yeah. Well said. And it's definitely a controversial term. I mean, even our show, Queer Voices, we get a lot of pushback from people that associate that with a more negative connotation, like you mentioned in the 50s and 60s, when it was certainly a term that was not used favorably. And famously, Queer Nation kind of reclaimed it as a rebellion kind of a move when they were in the 80s and trying to do that. So and it really does mean something I think different. I think language evolves, and it's interesting to see how it's become a more inclusive idea. And I certainly use it myself a lot to embrace the entire community because I feel like we do need to all come together rather than saying this is the gatekeeping and this, like you said, who belongs and who doesn't.

Marriage Equality Numbers And Reality

Brett 8:38

But no, in his opinion piece, he cited that the support for same-sex marriage has dropped 18 percentage points. And I wanted to kind of parse that a little bit. Overall, in the general population, it's estimated that about 65% approve. And this is according to a Gallup poll that was done in June. And that is down from a high of about 71% in 2022, 2023, around that era. So overall, it hasn't dropped as dramatically as what he's stating in this piece. But what he is actually worried about and what he's citing is that we've seen this in conservative groups such as Republicans. They went from about a 55% percentage down to 37%. So there's his 18. And that's why he's saying he is worried about the rights. Is it something that you're seeing that people are concerned about in the church? Or is it, I mean, is it is it something that's talked about in religious communities? This could be a sway, something that would endanger this?

SPEAKER_04 9:33

Well, Brett, let's let's be honest. The church has always been and should always be countercultural. It should always be the moral voice of and the moral conscience of people. I mean, that's what religion does. And what we are also witnessing at the same time is a rise of a Christian nationalism and the rise of a a Christian identity that is anything but Christian, certainly not the ways of Jesus. There is no way that you can read the beatitudes of Jesus and support a moral fabric of our societies, predominantly within the more conservative wing of the church, that says that immigrants are not welcome, that that says that that women should have no place in the pulpit. You know, so so this swing is not just about LGBT people or even the queer movement. It's about a rise of Christian nationalism that wants to define who is in and who is out. And the church should always be in the countercultural voice to that. And so I'm not surprised that conservatives in the evangelicals have lost or losing some level of support for marriage equality, but they're losing levels of support for anything that is seen as the ways of Jesus. So I I would say, and we're certainly seeing it in more mainline traditions, the Met United Methodist Church just recently voting to include LGBT clergy specifically among their ranks and to remove the language of of homosexuality from their book of discipline. You know, the that that there are two swing there are two movements going on. And I want to be on the movement that is always about radical inclusion. I wrote my doctoral dissertation in 2008, I believe, called Queer Theology and Introduction, building on the foundations of queer theory. And in there I I acknowledge that the word queer is problematic. It's a problematic word because of its history. And I I cite at the very end of my doctoral piece that the whoever takes on this next job or if they're they're writing another piece, that they that that there should alwa the the piece should be called Toward a Theology of Radical Inclusion. And I think that's what I what I understand when we use this word queer is that it really is about who who who is left out and how do we ensure that this faith, this church, this body that we talk about is always looking to extend the table, not to restrict it, not to say that because now I'm at the table, nobody else can get there, or only people who look like me or think like me or preach like me, or or or even theology, theologize like me can have a place at the table. That we should always be extending that table beyond our own identities and who's left behind. So I think that to correlate this with only evangelical Christianity is is looking short of where the movement of evangelical Christianity is moving, and that is to l to include less and not to

Christian Nationalism And Counterculture Church

SPEAKER_04 12:19

include more.

Brett 12:19

One of the biggest dividers right now in our country is the perception of the morality of changing or correcting one's gender. And is there anything even remotely biblical about this? I mean, where does this kind of opinion come from from a standpoint of that in religion?

SPEAKER_04 12:36

Aaron Ross Powell Again, you know, what what what what we're seeing in the United States right now is that no one's doing any critical analysis of scripture and uh contextualizing exactly where scriptures were written, for what period, for who, you know, anyone who's done anything around English literature knows that social location is absolutely fundamental. Social location of the the writer's social location of the reader's social location of the uh the actual piece that we find ourselves reading from whatever period. And and very often uh critics or or uh those who who examine scripture forget to contextualize where it's coming from. Now if we're uh talking about you know the trans folk in specific, you know, one one can cite some some Old Testament scriptures around eunuchs, you know, who uh who uh you know often referred to, especially in our modern culture, as as some would some might say, you know, castrated males who change their gender and who but but the reality is Jesus extends the the thought of what a eunuch is. In Jesus' own writings, he talks about eunuchs who were born that way, made that way by humanity, and some who have renounced marriage for the glory of God. And so Jesus is seen to extend this table over and over and over again. And uh who you know, who am I to say that what a transgender experience is? My role as a person of faith is to embrace to come with compassion and understanding and to seek equality, to find places at the table. And uh you know, so so it makes some people uncomfortable. It you know the word queer makes some people uncomfortable. But that doesn't mean that I have the right to say that it's not valid or included or a part of, and you know, the church is gonna make people uncomfortable, language is gonna make people uncomfortable, but that doesn't give me the right or anybody else to say that the table's now closed.

Brett 14:29

I'm talking to Reverend Neil G. Thomas, senior pastor of Cathedral Hope of Dallas. I really

Scripture Context And Trans Lives

Brett 14:35

love this idea of moving religion towards radical inclusion or moving theology towards that. It seems that that is the place that I would love to go. And certainly I've embraced the word queer as one part of my identity and part of the identity of this show. So I appreciate you coming on and talking about why this idea of somebody saying that that term is not gonna describe them, you know, is a little bit divisive, obviously. But but just so that we can know where to reach out to you if somebody has any questions or anything further. Obviously, you're a senior pastor of Cathedral Hope of Dallas. Should be pretty easy to find on the internet, but is there a website or yeah, Cathedral Hope Cathedralof Hope.com is our website.

SPEAKER_04 15:17

We also stream all our worship services. And of course, you know, ple please do do connect with me. I I guess I also want to just say, Brett, look that that in no way uh do I you know uh judge or demonize Matthew Vynes. I know Matthew. We live in the same city, we've sat at many, many tables together. He has offered a great uh value to the the Christian church and specifically in the evangelical movement. I also want to acknowledge that I'm a white male cisgender uh gay guy, and you know I don't speak for other communities, but I also want to acknowledge that and I and I want to put it this way you know, during the AIDS pandemic, we faced very similar backlashes. There was the act-ups and there was the traditional gays who wanted act up to be silent and felt that it was the wrong strategy, it was not the right way. What we've come to learn over by looking back in hindsight is that without the act up movement and without those who wanted to be respectable, we would have a had a much, much bigger pandemic both in the United States and around the world.

Respectability Politics And Movement Lessons

SPEAKER_04 16:20

And and in some ways both both are needed. And I think my main uh disagreement, if you will, with this particular article is that it's one way or the other. It's one identity or the other. And the truth of the matter is in any social change and any Christian change, both have been essential to respect one another. And and Matthew doesn't need to call himself queer. That doesn't give him right to say that I can't.

Brett 16:46

Very well said. And certainly it's a piece that has sparked a lot of conversation and probably much needed within the community to have these thoughts about semantics and where we are and where we want to be moving forward.

SPEAKER_04 16:58

So the queer movement is more than just LGBT. You know, that anyone who stands against dominant culture has the right to find themselves in this queer movement and to ask themselves this fundamental question and I and I think I'll I'll end with this, is that we have to understand that the binaries were put there for a reason. And we are discovering that the binaries did not and will not and cannot work. And so we're in a period of complete change, which is not only going to make fairy people uncomfortable, but it's gonna also bring out people who want to be entrenched in their side. And I think that's the polarization that we're seeing in our country right now. Queer people are a great scapegoat, but we've also always been the great change makers. So I would encourage us to keep on doing that work.

Brett 17:45

Definitely. Cheers to change, definitely. Thank you so much, Neil Thomas.

SPEAKER_04 17:49

Thank you, Brett.

Support KPFT And Community Media

Deborah 17:57

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Netflix Reboots Little House

Brett 18:52

Hi there, this is Brett Cullum, and Netflix is going to reboot Little House on the Prairie on July 9th, and they are going to drop all eight episodes of their first season on that date. Now, the book series by Laura Ingalls-Wilder was largely published in the 30s and 40s. The television show ran from 1974 to 1983, and the television show loosely followed the books, Little House in the Prairie and On the Banks of Plum Creek. They sort of combined them so that the Ingalls were moving to Walnut Grove, Minnesota. Now, Michael Lannon kept them in one spot during the entire show, whereas the books were set in many locations. As the books changed, so did the locations of the home. So truly, about 40 years between each iteration, so time for another one. There are decidedly no queer characters in Little House, but my spouse is author, R. Lee Ingalls, so it would be strange not to bring this topic up with him. So he is a contributor on Queer Voices, also an author, and I thought we could talk about some Little House things. So welcome, Lee. Thank you. Glad to be here. Okay. Just to bring everyone up to speed. I know this is the one question you dread getting asked every time, but how are you related to Laura Ingalls-Wilder?

How Arlie Ingalls Is Related

Lee 20:06

Yeah, well, I some don't so much dread it, but it is absolutely the first question I get whenever somebody makes that connection. So it's easiest to understand if you if you look at her family first. So Laura is one of four girls for Charles and Carolyn, four girls that lived to adulthood. The only son didn't live to adulthood. So of those four girls, only one of them had their own child, and that was Laura. She had a daughter named Rose, who grew up to be quite an accomplished writer and author of on her own. But Rose only had one child. That child did not survive infancy. And because of complications from that pregnancy, she was never able to have any more children. So the net is the four girls, there are no direct descendants of them, which means also for Charles and Carolyn, there are no living direct descendants either. You have to look to a sibling. And my great-great-grandfather is Lansford James Ingalls. He's Charles' younger brother.

Brett 21:00

So basically, a brother of the character that we're seeing on Little House in the Prairie, yes. Or in the books. Right. Okay. So when did you realize you were first connected? When did that kind of hit home?

Lee 21:11

Yeah. So it kind of happened by mistake. I was still in grade school and we were living in Wisconsin. Somebody came up to me in the schoolyard and asked, Are you the same family as the Little House in the Prairie? You spell your last name the same way. And I I didn't know. So I went home and I asked my mother, and she said, Yes, in fact, we are, but she wasn't exactly sure how. So yeah, that's how I find out.

Brett 21:33

So what did you think of the original Michael Lane and TV series when it came out? Like what was your family's reaction to that?

Lee 21:39

So we all got a set of the books when the series first came out, and I still have that set of books today. In fact, I've never even opened them. It was it's kind of surreal to know that a series is being produced based on your family's history. So that was kind of just it was really an odd feeling. I liked the show. I was working at the time, and a lot of times I was working in the evenings, so I wasn't able to watch the series. series completely, but I did see the episodes. I thought they did a great job. I thought the series stuck to some of the foundational themes of Laura's works. So I was

Going Back To The Books

Lee 22:10

glad to see that.

Brett 22:10

The interesting thing about this new project with Netflix is that they are claiming that Rebecca Suneshine, who is the showrunner, is taking all of this back to the books rather than what Michael Landon did. Now what Michael Landon did was probably a prod product of his time to do a TV show then they wanted to keep one set. Right. They didn't want them to move around. But now we have the ability obviously with these streaming services that each season can be its own thing. So I think sounds like Rebecca's going to try to go back to the books rather than rebooting the Michael Landon series. Right.

Lee 22:43

And as you know, that's more true to our family generally because the my first book each chapter is set at a different house. We moved around a lot as did Laura's family.

Brett 22:53

Yeah you guys seem to have that in your genetics. Yes we do. I don't know why. But so how has the series I mean either the books or the television show influenced your life?

Lee 23:04

You know like I said it's it's been a very surreal experience. A lot of times and well in fact when we first got together I kind of told you about that relationship and I don't think you took it seriously at the time but I said you'll be surprised how often this comes up in conversation and we'll people will bring it up and that has happened. So every once in a while someone made the connection between my name and the author and when they found out that I was actually part of that family then of course you get a series of questions. And so outside of that though, I don't really think it's influenced my life except maybe in the collecting of our family memorabilia. I seem to do that more than than most people I know. Yeah but that kind of just came about naturally I guess. Right, right. Because my mother and father did that so did my grandparents.

Brett 23:47

Yeah yeah and to be fair when we did first meet I did immediately kind of ping that I was like oh Ingalls okay and I grew up reading the books and I grew up watching the show and I think that I was of an age when the TV series came out that it was like must see TV for me. And I think that my generation kind of really did that. I think it's interesting to see what is happening with this new Netflix series.

Lee 24:10

What are you hoping that this new incarnation of Little House will do yeah so I'm hoping that it will introduce the the series to a new generation. That's the net of what I actually hope to see. So another generation of Americans seeing those stories, I bring them to life and you know being the same thing in their childhood that the original series was for people that when you were a child.

Brett 24:34

Yeah. You know there's a lot of like fear I think from the original fans coming around and with this Netflix reboot. Do you understand their kind of qualms about that?

Lee 24:45

I do. The thing that I don't understand is how a judgment can be made about something you haven't even seen. Yeah so that that part I I struggle with. But you know I I understand what their fear is if they're going to make it something other than what it was originally take it out of the time period that it was actually took place for Laura and her family. I get all of that but the realities of our society you know they've changed they've evolved and the show should evolve as well.

What The Reboot Might Say Today

Brett 25:13

Well it's interesting because I think that both the books and the original series with Michael and came out at times when they were needed if you will the books obviously came out in the time around the Great Depression the first book. Yes. And it was to be thankful for what you have I think that that was a driving thing. And then in the 70s there was this kind of feeling of mistrust. I think Richard Nixon was president and Michael Lannon kind of gave this family that you could kind of believe in and trust. Yeah. So what do you think this I mean you had to speculate we haven't seen the show yet but what would you think that it's trying to say to today?

Lee 25:46

If they stay true to the actual writing so again the you know some of the foundational pieces of of Laura's works were honesty integrity and doing the right thing. And they were also seeming very wholesome stories as well. And I think that's so needed today. We don't have a lot of that so I think people need to see that or have that in their lives again. So and that that's I'm hopeful that it will take take hold because of that.

Brett 26:11

Yeah. Well it's interesting and it's an interesting division of the fans I think because we have gone to quite a few fan events and you have gone on your own to quite a few fan events as well things like the home sites and different conventions and we've gone to like casts you know where you get to meet some of the cast and things like that.

Being Gay In A Conservative Fandom

Brett 26:30

So what is it like for you to be queer or to be a gay man from the Ingalls family and trying to relate to this very conservative fan base and kind of talk to them.

Lee 26:40

Yeah so it gets back to something I said very frequently and that is there's a duality in our life that we have to figure out and make work. So you're right when I go into those environments I don't try to hide who I am I'm not you know I'm proud that we are married and we're a couple however I don't bring that to the forefront. You know I understand the audience that I'm there to you know address and the message that they're expecting from me. So and I try to be respectful of that. And there's a lot of people that are there that know that we're a couple and that we're together. They have no problem with it but it's just not a part of my life that they're interested in. So I don't really try to force that on them. So that that is you know part of it.

Brett 27:19

Well what I think is amusing though is we'd have run into several LGBTQIA plus folks who do relate so much to Little House in the bear I know I'm so it is kind of an interesting paradox there. It's it's almost like country music and and LGBTQIA plus people. But now you started a nonprofit this year for the society of the Ingalls family.

A Nonprofit To Save Family Stories

Brett 27:41

What's the purpose and the focus of that?

Lee 27:43

So coming out the the one strength of Laura Ingalls Wilder's works is she told the stories of an average American family living in extraordinary times in our nation's history. And I think that's the strength of her works. What I have come to realize especially after writing a couple of books that the stories of the average American don't often get told and a couple of generations go by and now the details of your life are largely forgotten. People don't recognize you anymore in photos and there are a good number of us that live average lives that have extraordinary events happen during those lives and it's a shame to lose that. So the focus of it is to gather those stories gather that memorabilia and make it available in some format to future generations. That's the actual purpose so it it's society of the Ingalls family but you know in this in that statement we're viewing the Ingalls family as representative of the average American family not just our family.

Brett 28:40

Well speaking of the average American family and your family tell me about the the first book that you wrote what was

Writing Books From Lived History

Brett 28:47

that?

Lee 28:47

So the first book that I wrote was Ingalls on the Prairie the Geneferne Ingalls story. It's my it's the story of my parents' early years.

Brett 28:54

Okay.

Lee 28:54

And that kind of chronicle their history is then Yeah yeah so the intent was you know as I went through my life you know I knew that at some point in time somebody was going to pick up the pen, so to speak and and write about our family again. And as time went on and nobody was doing it, at some point it occurred to me that that might have to be me. So then I started jotting down memory joggers, the stories within our own family that would be interesting. Actually stories in my life that would be interesting. And my thought was to write my story. But as I began that I quickly realized the story that should have been told is my grandparents but I didn't have enough detail of their life to actually write a book about them. But I did have enough detail about my parents and their lives were equally as interesting as you know. I mean a huge number of events that really set them apart from from other people. And I didn't want that to pass without being told for future generations.

Brett 29:47

And then you followed that up with another book.

Lee 29:49

Then I did then I actually wrote my story. A lot of the storylines that I had originally intended to put in my book were in the first book so I didn't really go into the same amount of detail. But you know for me growing up as a gay man born in the mid-1900s and living in a time where adults in your life absolutely control the materials that you had access to. So there's only three television stations, magazines and books and all those kind of things they could easily keep away from you so that you don't really know that there are other people like you in the world. So you grow up in this really lonely space. And the first part of the book was so desperate and dark and I thought oh man I have to do something to lighten the lighten this up a little bit or I won't be able to get through it. So I did then I wrote the uh preface to the book which then kind of gave some hope and I could you know as I'm writing about those really desperate times see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Brett 30:41

Well you know there's a old saying it gets better. I mean that was a whole campaign. As we grow up we probably get a little bit more comfortable in our just our identity as as a queer community it does and it did get better for me.

Lee 30:54

And the other thing that was a popular phrase during the 1990s was we are everywhere. And that was part of the catalyst for writing this book as well we are everywhere including one of the families that is most well known in our country. Yeah. And what is the second book called second book is called The Prairie has a rainbow. And then there's there any other books that you've written or yeah yeah so I've written a couple short stories. I've also written a cookbook so we my family worked on a cookbook back in the early 2000s and it was so thick I never really did anything with it. But recently I took out some of the best recipes those that I use all the time I made a smaller cookbook out of it. So yeah it's Cooking on the Prairie with the Ingalls. You've got your mom and dad story. You've got yours you've got a cooking story. Okay so where can we get these? I mean what do okay so you can find them on Amazon. Okay. You can look under the my name Arlie Ingalls the author and the old books will be listed there as well as the short stories. Okay. All right.

Brett 31:47

Well I am super excited to actually get to watch this Netflix show with you. And are you planning any events or anything like that?

Watch Party Details And How To Join

Lee 31:54

Yeah yeah yeah yeah so we do have two events that are planned around it. So we decided to do a watch party and when I say we the Society of the Ingalls family decided to do a watch party but it was already one scheduled and had been advertised for the ninth. So we didn't want to come or have a conflict with that one. So we moved ours to the 10th which did a couple of things kind of took the pressure off from everybody watching it that first night and second some of the celebrities like Alison Arngram, the twins that played Rosewelder Sidney Greenbush played Carrie they will be attending our event. Yeah.

Brett 32:26

No that's amazing. And if somebody wants to attend this event where are they going to go to find out about it?

Lee 32:31

So you can go to send me a note on Facebook Lee Ingalls or R. Lee Ingalls or you can send an email to societyofheals family at gmail.com.

Brett 32:41

Okay. So what's next for you? I mean what are you planning after this? I mean obviously this is going to be a big to-do but anything that kind of more personal that you're working on as a project?

New Websites And What’s Next

Lee 32:52

I have a couple of things that I'm working on. You know I wrote for a magazine for how many years? A couple of years and that kind of went away and I thought you know there I I still like to write so I'm going to put my articles out online. So I created two websites. One is America's Fabric that is where I pretty much stay true to the Ingalls family. Most articles there are written about family type topics. I also created one called the Mansion Man, which is more socially forward. It's uh where I put those storylines that are more appropriate for our group of people.

Brett 33:22

And you realize the irony of this is that Rose Wilder actually wrote for magazines. So she also wrote books. Yes. But it was kind of interesting that they all did. Yeah there you go you're just fulfilling your destiny in here for Ingalls. So there you go. Well I'm very excited to see Little House come up. I'm very excited to see it for a new generation. I'm very curious to see what they do. The speculation is that they're going to stick more to the books which from what I can tell looks like they're going to start with Little House on the prairie because they're going to move to Indian territory from what I can tell from the previews. But you have to understand when we recorded this we haven't seen an episode right at all.

Lee 33:58

We have not seen anything. Yeah and the trailers we could be totally wrong. Yes. Although I have to agree with you all the research that you've done which you you're excellent at kind of points to that.

Brett 34:09

Yeah well let's hope but it should be interesting. So congratulations on your family once again being chronicled this time with the streaming service Netflix. So hopefully it'll be huge and hopefully you'll get a lot more opportunities to talk about your family and then one of the things I think is interesting is that when you talk about your family it usually inspires other people.

Lee 34:28

Always when I talk to people about or they come up and talk to me I'll have a little bit to say about mine and then they start telling me about their family and that's kind of what put me on the path everybody has interesting stories.

Brett 34:38

Write them down Yeah no and I would encourage that for our community as well I mean the community you think about all of the the drag families and stuff like that they need their own histories.

Lee 34:48

Yes they do because that's how long before that becomes gone. Fifty years from now people would be very interested in knowing what our lives were like and the irony is they're called houses. Yes.

Meet Moulin Rouge Tour Performer Reese Carr

Brett 35:01

Absolutely right about it all right well thank you thank you hi there this is Brett Kaloma today I'm joined by Reese Carr who is making their national tour debut as part of the cast of the touring production of Moulin Rouge which comes as part of the Broadway at the Hobby Center series July 14th through the 19th they are a graduate of Ohio University's inaugural musical theater class and also the co-founder of Vibrancy Theater. Welcome Reese Hi how are you I'm doing all right thank you. Well the biggest question that I always wonder with people in this particular tour or this show were you familiar with Moulin Rouge before you

Audition Prep Without Seeing The Film

Brett 35:49

auditioned?

SPEAKER_05 35:49

As for the musical yes I remember I was in school at OU and um Moulin Rouge had like Justin coming out and I remember seeing a few clips from like rehearsals and things but then I remember seeing several performances on like Good Morning America and I remember there was one specifically that was on um the Tony Awards and I remember watching that and being like wow that is incredible. And even listening to some of the music from it I had never seen Moulan Ruse the movie before I booked the job. I'll be very transparent about that. And so coming into the musical I was like wow this looks so cool. And I think it was I had watched several clips before it was at a time where I was like I don't know how if I'm going to be able to afford a ticket to this show. Living in Ohio I I grew up in Ohio and so Broadway shows were all I had to be very specific and particular about which ones I was able to see and which ones I chose to see. And so Moulin Rouge came at a time where I wasn't really able to necessarily go to New York and see it before I was even able to move there. But you know in the age of TikTok YouTube I found a way to watch clips and to watch whatever it was I needed to watch. And so but there became a there came a time clearly after I had graduated school when I was like Moulin Rouge is on my list of shows I want to do it's on at the it was in the top three whether Broadway or tour and I certainly did not expect tour. I didn't expect tour of anything really but specifically Moulin Rouge that was a really big surprise and and what I will say going into my audition for the show I had felt like I had already seen it especially like I'd watched several clips of like different choreography moments and I had a really good understanding of what it required and what it was asking. And so when the audition came I felt very much like okay great if I don't get it fine but I feel I feel pretty prepared for not having seen it and uh now that I have seen the movie I I understand the hype around it. What I will say the movie is wild. I did not expect the movie to be what it is and so seeing the musical I was like wow this feels very different in a good way.

Brett 37:56

It is very different. I distinctly remember it coming out in 2001 and I went and saw it opening weekend like three or four times. It was like crazy. I was just like I had never seen anything like it. I don't think I've seen anything since unless you really count some other films from Baz Lerman like strictly ballroom or something like that. But it is very unique and and I know that Bass was actually involved in uh making this and kind of coming back with this on Broadway and stuff in the tour. So what's it like to be part of this cast? I mean how how big is this cast for first of all? It's got to be huge, right?

SPEAKER_05 38:28

I want to say about if we're counting also swings offstage and on stage I want to say it's about 30 ish. It's a it's a big company. It's certainly one of the bigger companies that I've been in in terms of shows and it's pretty involved all throughout a lot of our ensemble covers principles a lot of us have like done different cover things in the past or we have a really awesome team of swings and understudies that also are really incredible and I think also make the show what it is and bring such new life to it and also save us whenever we're like really our onstage company members are really down for the count. It really is quite wonderful. I think I've never been part of a cast that feels so lovely to each other. It's it's really weird to explain because I've never been part of a company that is that is this close. We all generally get along pretty well we all hang out like all

Tour Life And Finding Community

SPEAKER_05 39:22

the time. A lot of times it's like where are we all going? All 30 of us squeezing into whatever bar it is it's very communal and I really appreciate that especially because tour life can be really isolating. This is my first tour and it's the longest I've ever been away from home and that was really hard the first six months. The first six months I had spent my first Thanksgiving alone not alone but without my family my first Christmas without my family in I was in Toronto and I was like this has never happened to me before I don't know how I'm supposed to navigate this. And the people of the cast and the company were so loving and were so understanding of you know me being a young 20 something on their first contract away from family. And I think we all understand how hard it is to be away from our loved ones and so we lean on each other a lot especially because the show is so physically demanding, vocally demanding emotionally demanding. It we give a lot to the show and on the stage. And so I think there has to be some sort of support off the stage. Otherwise we can't show up for each other on stage and it makes it that much harder to be able to give our full selves. There are even times when I feel like I'm exhausted from the show and I try to go maybe try to reserve some energy and it's kind of hard to find that balance just based on how it's structured. And so it's really helpful to have people in your corner that are understanding the place the position that you're in and that are ready to like joke around or that are ready to be like hey I think you need some space I'm going to give you some space or vice versa. And then we circle back and then we're like okay what are we doing after the show you know it's a really great community and I'm really blessed to have it.

Two Years On Tour And Closing Soon

Brett 40:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:58

Well how long have you been on this tour and how long does it go for do you know I have been on the Moulin Rouge tour for about two years actually coming up. I started rehearsals in late May of 2024. My first show was on July 13th 2024. And yeah it's been it's it's weird that it's been two years. Also because I my birthday is on July 14th actually and so this will be my third birthday with Moulin Rouge which is kind of crazy. Like it really is wild. We actually only have a few more weeks on tour our last performance will be August 2nd in Boston which is where the tour opened so it's a very moment and I'm not sure that I I think in just the joining the tour of it all and not knowing kind of how these contracts work when I first came in I wasn't sure how long I was going to be on here for and you know different opportunities come and go but this job I think has been really in a really incredible like first big gig so I feel really blessed to be able to close it out and to be able to like kind of wrap up this journey this part of the journey because Moulan's the tour has been out for at least four years and I I feel like it's a really cool legacy to be part of particularly the touring production and the touring company seeing everyone from like past versions of the tour come back and like do the tour again it uh it kind of drives a nice like through line. Even if I don't necessarily know the people that came before me super well, there is sort of like a a connection there at least to be like hey we've done the same thing even if it's on a different stage in a different state or sometimes in a different country which is also the cool thing about Mulan Rouge is that it spans kind of everywhere. There's so many different companies around the world and um kidding I feel really blessed to be a part of the touring cast and to be to have met the people I've met on my two

Seventy-Five Songs And Favorite Moments

SPEAKER_05 42:47

years here.

Brett 42:47

Well have you ever counted how many songs are actually in this thing? Has anybody like racked that up?

SPEAKER_05 42:52

I have not counted but I believe it's written down somewhere as like 72 or 75. And it's not full songs but it's like at least references to songs in them in the show itself. And yeah and it's the it I'm reminded of how many songs are in the show whenever I'm at a grocery store, at a club, at a drag brunch, at whatever it is a song from Moulin Rouge will probably play at least once, if not like several songs in a in a night or in a day. And it's so interesting I even learned new songs that I had not known before joining the tour and I remember like hearing them outside of the tour and being like that's the name of that song I had no idea did not know that. But yeah it's a it's it's a lot of music. It's a lot of music a lot. Yeah.

Brett 43:39

Do you have a favorite?

SPEAKER_05 43:40

I have several favorite like medlies one of my favorites is Diamonds Diamonds or it's called the Sparkling Diamond but we call it Diamonds on the show. And it starts with Diamonds by Shirley Bassey which I've I've heard that song since I was a kid since I was like five but it also goes into like Single Ladies and Brick House And uh in vogue. And I think it's so it's such a smart mashup of songs that it really like feels cathartic to listen to. It's one of my favorite parts of the entire show. It's so glitzy, it's so glamory, it's so fierce. Another one of my favorites is Bad Romance. That's our uh or Backstage Romance is form as it's formerly known. And it's our like lady gaga mix of a bunch of different songs about love, about like Rocky love, about like love that's kind of like I don't know if toxic is the right word, but that's kind of you know fun and like testy. It's also like our high energy opener of act two, and it's it's it's such a fun dance piece that we get to perform and getting to sing. It's I've never been in a show where I get to sing Lady Gaga and Beyonce and Whitney Houston in the same show, which I think is pretty cool. Do I have any other favorites? I'd say those are my those are my top two for sure.

Growing Up Performing In Ohio

Brett 44:52

Yeah.

unknown 44:52

Okay.

Brett 44:52

Well, I'm talking with Rhyscar. How did you get into acting and singing?

SPEAKER_05 44:57

I've always been a very musical kid. I've always been a kid that liked to move. I've like put on little plays with like my my family. I'd make them be involved in little stories I would do. And I am also like a Disney kid. And so I watch Disney Channel all the time. And a lot of those channels, like Disney Nickelodeon, and Cartoon Network, a lot of them had a lot of actors who sing on their shows and in their movies. And so I think I was heavily influenced by that. I was heavily influenced by by uh America's best dance crew on TV. I was heavily influenced just by like watching movies and watching people perform. And I started actually, I didn't start dancing until I was 13. My brother was a sports kid, and so because he was in sports, it was easy to put me in sports too. But even in the sports that I was in, I did soccer for about six years, I did karate for about six years. And even during both of those, I would be dancing and singing like on the sides. I was never truly as focused as I could have been. And even as I got better at them, I was still in the back of my mind like, but I really want to like dance. Like, I really want to take ballet, I want to take jazz, I want to take tap, hip-hop, all that stuff. I was lucky that I got to do a lot of theater even in the times of me doing soccer and karate. I did my first show. I was, I think, a tree in a play in elementary school in the third or second grade. And I think as soon as I did that, I was like, we're gonna do this more. And I did a lot of elementary school growing up. I did a lot of summer theater in my um community theater, my hometown, Ohio Valley Summer Theater. Also, I worked with ABC Players, which is in Nelsonville, Ohio, which is 30 minutes away from Athens, Ohio. I'm from Athens, Ohio. And it became a habit really when I was younger of doing every summer, I would do a show from about sixth grade up until high school, which is, and then when I went to went to university, I would be doing a show every summer. And that was just kind of what you did. And I remember after I graduated high school, I didn't do a show that summer because I was like, I'm gonna have a free summer. And it felt weird. It felt really strange to take that part out of it for a little bit. I think it was worth it, but but theater has been part of my life for such a long time. And even outside of shows, I uh Ohio Valley Summer Theater did this theater camp every summer. And for a few years I attended the camp, and then I got to an age where I was a counselor at the camp. And I've had a lot of mentors in my life from Athens that have really shaped who I am as a performer. Whether it's dance, acting, or singing, they've all been in my corner, and I'm really appreciative of that. I think it can be hard being from a small town sometimes, especially moving to New York, where, you know, everyone has is also the big fish in their small pond, or they've had more experience in certain in certain ways. Athens is a very small town, and so there was a while where I was maybe a little bit embarrassed to be fully transparent, or a little bit like, do I have enough of what it takes? And I think what I love about coming back to Athens is I am reminded that like all of those memories and all of the things that I've been through and all of the experience I've had is still so completely valid and has gotten me to where I am today. And I actually have nothing but the utmost respect and gratitude for my mentors that have gotten me here and that have given me tips and that have taught me certain things and that have been have that have pushed me. I feel like I was so pushed in my younger, in my younger theater experience because I think maybe some of my mentors saw something I didn't quite see. And that I'm really appreciative of because I think it really has set me up for success in my adult

Building An Inaugural Theater Program

SPEAKER_05 48:29

life.

Brett 48:29

Yeah. Well, you went to Ohio State, and it says that you were uh first class for musical theater.

SPEAKER_05 48:34

So actually I went to Ohio University.

Brett 48:37

Ohio University, sorry.

SPEAKER_05 48:38

Yes. No, it's okay, it's okay. All that happens so much. Ohio State's the red one, Ohio University is the green one.

Brett 48:44

Ah, okay. Yeah, no, I I just I who knew. But Ohio University, and it was the first time that they offered that program, is that right?

SPEAKER_05 48:51

Yes. Coincidentally enough, I don't know why. Fate works in mysterious ways. It was in my senior year of high school, my voice teacher who um Ohio University has like a vocal program for non-university students that's like for like kids and um like K through 18. And I was in that program for about four years from freshman year to senior year. And my vocal my vocal teacher, Melissa Brobeck, she told me, hey, there's a musical theater program that's starting right when you graduate. I know you want to go to New York. I know you want to go to a bigger school, maybe, but this program's right here, you'd be a part of the first class. That's a pretty iconic opportunity. And for a while, I was hesitant, I was resistant as someone who had grown up in Athens and was born there. I was really in need of some change. However, looking back, I think it was maybe the best decision I could have made at the time, both financially and like emotionally. I've met some of my best friends at that school. I've met some amazing colleagues that I can also call mentors now. And it was really interesting to be the first class of an inaugural program. In a lot of ways, we set the precedent for what to do and what not to do in the program. I think in a lot of ways, we went through a lot of changes that were really hard. We also were in the midst of the pandemic in our second year of the program, and that was a whole thing to figure out like, how do we teach this in this way when we hadn't done this part of the program in person before, let alone on Zoom? And how do we do a show on Zoom? How do we navigate this all through the pandemic? And then coming out of it, I think it was even more so like, what can we do to make this better? And how can we make this program something that we can really feel proud of? And also accepting that we can only do so much with the time we've been given, but we can leave some sort of like legacy. And yeah, it was really, it was a really interesting time of my life, but I look back on I do look back on it fondly. Even in the times when it was really difficult, I had a lot of really great friends that I could lean on and a lot of really great community that I that we created. And I still talk to a lot of them to this day. I'm actually going to a friend's wedding from that program in September in London, which I'm very excited about.

Brett 51:02

Yeah, yeah. Awesome.

Claiming Nonbinary Identity And They Them

Brett 51:04

Well, you know what, Reese, I noticed that you use they them pronouns. So you identify as non-binary. Can you tell me a little bit about how you landed there?

SPEAKER_05 51:11

Yeah. Um, so I as a kid, I've always knew about I was special. And I think in terms of sexuality, I always knew that um I was on the gay side of things. And I think it was more so a matter of coming to terms with that rather than like a whoa, like a realization. Um and I think as it pertained, so I came out when I was 15, and I think in my head, I was kind of like, okay, that feels like it. I think, you know, I I I feel pretty solid in my gender. I always kind of knew that was a lie, I guess. Or even if it wasn't a lie, I was like, I don't know if that's the end of the story. And so out of high school, going into college, I had several trans friends, I had several non-binary friends, and so I have had a decent understanding of what that meant. I guess for a while, I didn't think it really applied to me. However, I've looking back now that I am 24, almost 25, I have always found gender to be something that I don't feel like I've subscribed to, at least as it is right now in the United States and in 2026. I have someone asked me recently, actually, uh a dear friend had asked me if I see my gender as like ball-consuming genders or like no gender at all. And I told them it's actually a secret third thing. I don't know. I just feel like I, my personality transcends gender, and I don't feel like I really want to be constricted by whatever a man is supposed to be or a woman is supposed to be, or even what we say non-binary is. I think a lot of times non-binary can be categorized into a third gender. When I think the reality is, is that there doesn't need to be a restriction on how many there can be. I think for me, I love the opportunity to just exist. And for me, with my pronouns they, them, theirs, I came to that realization, I believe it was like after my 21st birthday, where I had tried for a summer to just use they, them pronouns. I had been playing with they, he, he, they for a while. And I was kind of like, the he just doesn't feel right. It just doesn't feel authentic. And I think the part that I'm that I try to remind people, I think, is that I'm still figuring it out. And a lot of queer people are still figuring it out and are oftentimes questioning themselves. But at the end of the day, I realize that I think my my gender identity just feels in another space and in an in somewhere that I don't really feel the need to like subscribe to one or the other or any. I think especially when it comes to fashion and like self-expression for myself, I've always been on the more feminine side of things and that feels really comfortable for me. And want I realize I'm at like a point in my life where it really does not make sense to not live authentically and express myself fully and to the fullest extent. And I think the fullest extent is like beyond gender and beyond like everyday comprehension. So yeah, I think as soon as I came to that realization, I was like, this feels like home. I I think we found a place to play and a place to really feel safe and a place that I feel most like myself. And even times where I'm like, was that the right choice? I am like verified by something else that, like, no, I made the right choice. And I not that it was a choice. I think I made the right choice by hearing listening to what my gut was saying and listening to what my internal rhythm was saying and to what my what I really wanted. And yeah, I feel I feel really, really confident

Post-Tour Plans And Creative Recovery

SPEAKER_05 54:25

in that.

Brett 54:25

Yeah. Well, this tour is obviously wrapping up. Do you have anything lined up next or are you just kind of auditioning?

SPEAKER_05 54:31

It's auditioning, also kind of like relaxing for a little bit. Yeah, no kidding. It's it's it's been a it's been a great journey. It's also been a very long and straining journey on my voice and my body. And it's the longest contract I've ever done, certainly of this caliber. So I think it's gonna be really interesting to see how my body and my just me acclimates to not doing Moulin Rouge every day, sometimes twice a day. As much as I am nervous about the unknown, I can't lie, it definitely does scare me a little bit, not knowing what the future holds. I'm also excited. I have actually made a list of things I would like to do post-tour that I'm like super excited for. I'm really excited to grow out my hair because I used to have like longer hair before I joined the tour, and then I had to, I cut it before I I auditioned, and that's what they stuck with. I'm excited to get back into roller skating. I used to roller skate and I was gonna get into it, and then I moved, and then there just there was no time. I wanna learn how I want to learn how to DJ. I really want to learn how to DJ. I feel like I'd be very good at it. Um and I just want to create more. I feel like I've been kind of in a in a a creative slump as of late because I used so much of my energy in the show that I don't always have enough left in the tank. And before I joined the tour, I remember I was choreographing so much more, and I just had all these ideas. And I'm really excited to return to that and to return to like singing more often for fun and like collaborating with friends and collaborating on like shows and readings and seeing shows and readings, and yeah. And then eventually like later down the line, I want to get a cat. They're just things that like are just hard to do on tour.

Brett 56:07

So the cat is hard on tour.

SPEAKER_05 56:09

Yeah. So I'm super excited to be able to I'm super excited to be able to like come into a new chapter, to close this chapter and to start a new one. And whatever that chapter is, I'm curious about, even if I'm a little bit scared.

Brett 56:22

I think that that's normal. Well, Reese Carr, Moon Lon Rouge, comes as part of the Broadway at the Hobby Center July 14th through the 19th. I am so excited to see you on the stage and and to see what all you do and all the razzle dazzle. It's certainly a spectacular, spectacular. It lives up to the hype for sure. So uh break legs and we'll see ya.

SPEAKER_05 56:42

Awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. This is fun.

Brett 56:46

Thank you.

Final Notes And Sign-Off

SPEAKER_03 56:54

This has been Queer Voices, heard on KPFT Houston and as a podcast available from several podcasting sources. Check our webpage queervoices.org for more information.

Ghost of Glenn 57:09

Some of the material in this program has been edited to improve clarity and runtime. This program does not endorse any political views or animal species. Views, opinions, and endorsements are those of the participants and the organizations they represent. In case of death, please discontinue views and discard remaining products.

SPEAKER_03 57:22

For Queer Voices, I'm Glenn Holt.