Queer Voices
Queer Voices
October 30th 2024 Queer Voices - Diana Foundation Country Dinner and Houston LGBTQ+ Caucus Endorsements and "Making Love"
Discover the fascinating journey of the Diana Foundation, America's oldest active LGBTQ nonprofit, as Bryan Hlavinka and Tanner Williams explore its whimsical origins and lasting impact. From a memorable Academy Awards party in 1953 to becoming a powerhouse in the Houston community, Tanner recounts the Foundation's unique path, marked by annual events like the Diana Awards. Gain insights into their meticulously documented 65-year history that highlights a trailblazing legacy in LGBTQ advocacy and community empowerment.
Join us for an eye-opening conversation with Brandon Mack, the endorsements chair for the Houston LGBTQ+ Political Caucus, as we uncover the art of political endorsements and the critical role they play in civil rights advocacy. Brandon shares the intriguing behind-the-scenes process where candidates undergo rigorous screenings to earn the caucus's endorsement. Learn about the invaluable endorsement card—a guiding light for voters keen on supporting candidates championing LGBTQ+ causes—and the transformative effect these endorsements have on both candidates and the community.
Take a nostalgic journey back to 1982 as we revisit the cultural significance of the film "Making Love," a groundbreaking portrayal of gay relationships amid the burgeoning AIDS crisis. Discover the societal impact of its release, the controversies it sparked, and the challenges of bringing such narratives to the mainstream. We reflect on its influence on the careers of its actors and the broader landscape of LGBTQ+ representation in media, emphasizing the timeless importance of visibility in both political and cultural arenas.
Queer Voices airs in Houston Texas on 90.1FM KPFT and is heard as a podcast here. Queer Voices hopes to entertain as well as illuminate LGBTQ issues in Houston and beyond. Check out our socials at:
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https://www.instagram.com/queervoices90.1kpft/
Hello everybody, this is Queer Voices, a podcast version of a broadcast radio show that's been on the air in Houston, texas for several decades. This week, brian Levinka talks with Tanner Williams of the Diana's Foundation.
Speaker 2:Before the first brick was thrown and the Stonewall Riots in New York, people were getting together and they were finding a community and they were finding space to be out and celebrate each other. It's an amazing story. I encourage folks to visit our website. We've got a version of the story to download.
Speaker 1:Then Deborah Moncrief-Bell has a conversation with Brandon Mack, who is the endorsements chair for the Houston LGBTQ Political Caucus Political Action Committee.
Speaker 3:The endorsement card is an actual listing of all of the candidates, but also even the propositions, because we actually have two propositions actually three propositions this year that the caucus has made a position on.
Speaker 1:So it's a listing of all of the candidates and positions that we are recommending that people support through their vote at the polls and Brett Cullum discusses the 1980s film Making Love, which marked one of the first times that gay men were shown in a positive light before the AIDS pandemic. Queer Voices starts now.
Speaker 4:This is Brian Levinka, and today I'm honored to interview my friend, tanner Williams with the Diana Foundation. Welcome to Queer Voices, Tanner. Thanks for having me. Brian, we've interviewed you before, but we may have listeners that have never heard of the Diana Foundation. Can you tell me what that is? The Diana Foundation.
Speaker 2:we're recognized as America's oldest active LGBTQ nonprofit organization and we started in Houston, Texas, in 1953. It was the first time the Academy Awards was broadcast on television. A group of friends gay friends got together. They bought a new television. They were having a watch party for the Academy Awards. Unfortunately, the bunny ears on the TV at the time lost reception. So the friends started making up some of their own funny awards and again they got back together in 1954.
Speaker 2:The party grew a little bigger and they started the evening by giving really their first official Diana Award, and the name of the Diana Foundation came from the roommate of the host, David Moncrief. His roommate was a window designer at the Sackowitz Department Store and they had this big statue of the Roman goddess Diana, and they thought well, she's the goddess of the hunt and it seems to be partying along with us. So they said well, on behalf of the hunt, and she, it seems to be partying along with us. So they said, though, on behalf of the Diana Foundation, the, the movie in Houston is. And ever since then the Diana Foundation grew into a more of an organization. But we've hosted our annual Diana Awards ever since. So I always warn people careful when you start a house party of some kind, because it could turn into a multi-year long-term commitment in an organization, but with the ability to change a lot of people's lives.
Speaker 4:How did you verify that you were the oldest organization LGBT organization in the country?
Speaker 2:We're celebrating our 72nd anniversary. Going back, I helped publish our 65-year history book. We did have a historian that was commissioned. He did a lot of research, looked into the history of the Dianas. Actually, at the time when we were really wanting to capture and put together our history and and our story, it really wasn't on our radar that we were the oldest gay organization in the United States. However, that's was an outcome of the research in the book.
Speaker 2:For a while that manuscript was shelved, but we finally worked through our during our 64th anniversary, raising some funds. We put together the book. It's published, it's out there which really tells an amazing story of the men and women in Houston who, at a time before the first brick was thrown and the Stonewall riots in New York, people were getting together and they were finding a community and they were finding space to be out and celebrate each other. It's an amazing story. I encourage folks to visit our website. We've got a version of the story to download, as well as on our Facebook page. There's a full chronology of the history of the organization.
Speaker 4:This is the Otis Continuing Organization. Were there other organizations that like that, I've heard of the Manichean Society? True, there were other organizations that, like I've heard of the Manaching.
Speaker 2:Society. True, there were other organizations. However, they have fizzled away or they were merged into another organization, they became something different or they had a different change of hands of some kind around in their evolution. The Dianas has always been the Diana Foundation. We've always been the same group, we've always been the same group, we've been the same tax ID number. We've celebrated the same way as we started back in 1953 and 1954. We are still the entity as we began, whereas others, again, they've become other things. In the book it actually discusses some examples of those organizations and what has been their evolution. For example, one Archives could be an example that merged a few times and was purchased a couple times. So it's completely something different. It's truly special that in the city of Houston that we get to have the claim that we're home of America's oldest active gay organization.
Speaker 4:You're known for the Diana Awards, which happened, as you said, during the Academy Awards, but we're going to talk about another event, the Country Dinner. Can you tell me about that and how it got started?
Speaker 2:We're actually celebrating our 61st anniversary of Diana Country Dinner and Diana Country Dinner, the Diana Foundation. We host two major fundraising events a year one in the fall, one in the spring, and this fall is our Country Dinner. This started, gee, even before the Dianas made it a main function of the organization. It was really started by the first president of the Dianas, charles Hebert, and it was really first called the Dog Days of Summer Party, and he used to have this party in his backyard at friends' houses. Again, when you have like a gathering year over year over year, it really starts to become a thing.
Speaker 2:When Charles passed away in 1987, the Diana Foundation really claimed wanted to keep that tradition going, making sure that it continued to be part of the major fundraising mechanism where the foundation can continue to provide funds to local charities. It was actually really great. Folks would come together with different food committees. They would make up creative names for their food dishes. At the time, a lot of gay men and women did not really want their names published on certain materials, so they would make up their own names about who created these country dishes of food. So we have a lot of these old menus that are actually in our history books. So it's pretty fun to go back and look and you actually begin to see the change really in the late 70s, when people stop using more of a different made up name that they would begin to use their own names.
Speaker 4:The event is coming up. It's on November 3rd at the Luster Pearl, houston. Can you talk about the Luster Pearl? What is that?
Speaker 2:The Luster Pearl. They actually there are Luster Pearls around the country. I actually had my first experience when I lived in Austin. There's an establishment on Rainy Street. If you've never been, it's a cool place to visit and they just opened their establishment just, I believe, about six months ago, in the Edo area. We originally had a different location for this year's event and unfortunately we received notice two weeks ago that they were having to close their doors, so that left us having to shake things up and find a new home. But next door, the Lester Pearl is welcoming us to celebrate country dinner from noon to four on November the 3rd. We're able to continue to have our live band, barbecue buffet, etc. It'll be a great Sunday fun day, but it also allows people to still to continue to come out and explore Edo and the area and how things are changing, and it'll be a great day for everyone.
Speaker 4:You mentioned that this was a fundraiser. Can you talk about who you're raising funds for?
Speaker 2:This year we're raising funds for Out for Education, the Diana Foundation. We've supported Out for Education for a number of years. Now we're formally establishing our own endowment fund so we can have a continuing scholarship in our name. So we're really excited to be partnering with them. They are a great group to partner with. Especially they have volunteers, a lot of enthusiasm, and I'm really excited about their mission really wanting to expand their scholarships, not just for LGBTQ youth, but families, lgbtq plus families. It's really great work. There's more to do and, as we know, higher education and continuing education is not getting any cheaper. So the more we can do to provide resources for folks to continue their education, the better.
Speaker 4:How does one become a member of the Diana Foundation?
Speaker 2:In our bylaws. There are a couple ways. One of the main parts is to be qualified as a member. You must have attended one of our country dinner events or one of our award shows. So if anyone is looking to become a member of the Diana Foundation, you can go to our website, you can fill out an application and you can join. We've got a couple different membership levels. We've got an associate non-voting tier, which allows people to have a low introductory dues rate, and I can see if this is a good fit for you to find community and find your passions line up to wanting to get involved with some creative events and charity work. Or we also have then our general full dues voting membership. Either way, Country Dinner is a great way to come out and help raise funds for out for education and it also qualifies you to become a full member of the organization.
Speaker 4:I was looking at the website and it says that you're the president.
Speaker 2:I am back as president. I served my first term really my first three years, back in 2014 to 2017,. I have returned again as president. The organization is looking to be a lot more active and I was asked to come back and help lead our board of governors, which is a great honor, and I'm really excited about the synergy that our board currently has. We're doing a lot of new and creative things. I'm very happy that our social calendar is front and center for our membership. Our membership is growing. We were just recognized by Outsmart Magazine as Houston's favorite philanthropic organization.
Speaker 4:You're on the favorite podcast right now.
Speaker 2:I know that I was going to also say congratulations to you all as well.
Speaker 4:Well, Tanner, is there anything else you want people to know about the Country Dinner or the Diana Foundation itself?
Speaker 2:Sure Again Country Dinner. This is open to everyone. It is a fundraiser. It will be a great Sunday fun day. We're going to have live music featuring Christopher Seymour and the Western cosplay. We're going to be at a chic, western, cool event venue. There's going to be barbecue. There'll be great raffles and other entertainment. We really want to make sure that folks come out on November the 3rd from noon to four. You can get tickets at thedianafoundationorg If you have any questions. My email is there on our event website. You can shoot me a message and if folks are still looking out there you want to sponsor or help give a little extra to help support Alper Education. Happy to talk with you and happy to make those connections and hope to see all of Houston out on November 3rd to celebrate our 61st anniversary of hosting Houston's Country Dinner.
Speaker 4:We've been speaking with Tanner Williams, the president of Diana Foundation, about the Country Dinner happening on November 3rd, 12 to 4, at Luster Pearl Houston, 2106 Dallas Street, houston, texas.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for having me and congratulations again on your recognition. It's well-deserved.
Speaker 4:This is Queer Voices.
Speaker 1:Now there's some good radio, a conversation that you almost feel part of, providing clear information and opinions from people in our community. I'd say that's almost worth paying for. Well, except that all of the good work that you hear on Queer Voices is done by volunteers. But like anything, it still costs money as well as our volunteers' time to bring this unique radio program to you each week. Will you contribute a little bit to help keep us and KPFT going? We're looking for listeners to become members of KPFT Partners with us really in keeping us out there on the airwaves and in podcasts around the world. But even a one-time gift will make a difference. Please go to kpftorg and click the red donate button for more information. We thank you and I think you'll thank yourself the next time you hear us on Queer Voices. I know Martha thanks you.
Speaker 6:This is Deborah Moncrief-Bell. With us is Brandon Mack. Brandon is the endorsements chair for the caucus. Brandon, first of all explain what the caucus is.
Speaker 3:The caucus is the Houston LGBTQ plus political caucus. We are the oldest organization dedicated to civil rights for the LGBTQ plus community in the Southwest and we operate one of the best screening and endorsement processes here in the city of Houston.
Speaker 6:And we operate one of the best screening and endorsement processes here in the city of Houston and we endorse candidates from the top of the ticket all the way to the the caucus has been around about the same length of time that queer radio has in Houston, so there's a very solid background of how these endorsements became a thing and the caucus itself because of its status. Is it a 501c4?
Speaker 3:That's correct. We are a 501c4, as well as a political action committee.
Speaker 6:Tell me a little bit about what the screening process is.
Speaker 3:The screening process is an opportunity for candidates to seek the endorsement of the Houston LGB Plus Political Caucus. So candidates actually have to actively contact us to schedule a screening interview and then, if you are a member of the caucus and you've gone through our candidate endorsement training, you're actually eligible to sit in on screenings and ask questions to the candidates. Screenings typically are anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour and we ask all sorts of questions related to the campaign as well as their stance on LGB plus issues, and then through that we make a recommendation of who to endorse. But it is the entire caucus body that ultimately participates and endorses the candidate.
Speaker 6:Brandon, how long have you been part of doing the endorsements?
Speaker 3:been part of doing the endorsements, so this is actually my 10th year of being screening chair for the Houston LGBTQ Plus program.
Speaker 6:And it's quite a bit of work because there's scheduling, there's contacting people, there's so many different personalities involved. The interviewees receive a questionnaire which they return, and then the committee can look at that questionnaire and formulate the questions directed to that individual candidate. What is the trickiest part of this?
Speaker 3:effort. The trickiest part generally of this effort is getting all of the schedules to kind of align, because you're having to deal with candidates who of course are very busy being on the campaign trail, and then also we're an entirely volunteer organization, so it's also making sure when we're available to do this important work. So that's usually the trickiest part. But then outside of that the actual conversations, the actual screenings themselves are actually relatively easy.
Speaker 6:I know from having been on the endorsement screening committee and talking to candidates that sometimes they learn stuff from that interview process and some of them carry that forward it's like I wasn't really aware of that before and then they add it to the repertoire of what they're going to be doing if they're elected. What are some of the benefits of having an endorsement from the caucus?
Speaker 3:So the benefits of having an endorsement from the caucus. Education is definitely one of them. As you just mentioned, Deborah, many of our candidates are not aware of a lot of the nuances of the LGBT plus community and this becomes an amazing way for them to learn that. And then it does impact their approach to issues but also maybe even changes the way that they even run and organize their campaigns. You also get the benefit of being on our card, which is highly sought after by voters, and that definitely is a big benefit. Also, the caucus works very hard to support our candidates, so we staff polling locations Primarily. We're known for our staffing of the West Gray polling location, but we also are at other polling locations throughout the entire city. We do phone banking, we do block walking as well as we also educate people about our candidates and provide additional opportunities for candidates to interact with the community. So there are a lot of benefits that come with being a part of the Houston LGB Plus Political Caucuses in CARD.
Speaker 6:Explain about. You called it the CARD.
Speaker 3:The endorsement CARD is an actual listing of all of the candidates, but also even the propositions, because we actually have two propositions actually three propositions this year that the caucus has made a position on. So it's a listing of all of the candidates and positions that we are recommending that people support through their vote at the polls during various election day.
Speaker 6:And this is distributed at polling locations and mailed out to a large number of people. It's not just the membership, I don't think.
Speaker 3:Correct. So it's not just our membership. It is mailed to other individuals who also subscribe to receive our card in the mail. And so easily we hand out or distribute well over 50,000 plus cards each election cycle.
Speaker 6:And they used to not let you take the card in with you, but I think that's allowed now.
Speaker 3:That is correct. You can take the card in, and so it's another reason for why we encourage people to either pick up the card. You can also print out the card and take it with you. If you go to our website, the caucusorg, you'll be able to find our endorsement card through our PAC website, and you can easily be able to download and print it and take it with you in the event you don't have your physical card.
Speaker 6:Let's get into it a little bit about those people who have been endorsed for this cycle, and I know that we have a presidential recommendation. How did that come about? Was there an actual screening with the candidates?
Speaker 3:As much as we would have loved to have been able to screen directly with Vice President Harris and Governor Tim Walz. We unfortunately did not get a chance to go around to interview directly with them, but we did interview with a representative of the campaign who spoke to us directly about their approach to lgbtq plus issues, their approach to running in texas you reach out to all candidates of all parties, anyone who is running for office.
Speaker 3:We want to clarify yes, the Houston LGBTQ plus political caucus is a nonpartisan organization, but we actually do not reach out to candidates to tell them we want you to seek our endorsement. The candidates actually have to actively see us because once again, we are a marginalized community. It should be that you authentically want to engage with us, that you authentically care about us as a community. So for that reason the candidates seek our endorsement.
Speaker 6:We don't go seeking does the issues that are raised and the help that they get with their campaign, the recognition that they get by being on that endorsement card At the top of the ballot? Who is the recommendation for presidential vice president?
Speaker 3:We endorse Vice President Kamala Harris and Governor Tim Walz for US President and Vice President. We did not endorse in the US Senator race. We definitely had a conversation about that, but ultimately we as a body determined and decided not to endorse in the US Senate.
Speaker 6:So that's. Another important thing to know is that there are some races where there's no endorsement for either candidate. There are candidates that are viable, candidates that for one reason or another, may not get an endorsement, and there are races where there's not going to be an endorsement. So that doesn't mean that these candidates are not worthy of. They just didn't go through the process or, for one reason or another, were not endorsed. So you have to do your homework. You can't just go by the caucus card, and especially in those races. One of the things I do is I go to the candidates' website. Of course, they always make themselves sound like they're the best things in sliced bread. You have to see, maybe, what other endorsements they have. Brandon, what are the other races where there are endorsements?
Speaker 3:Before I get into some of the other races where we have endorsements, I definitely want to emphasize that last point that this is about once again who do we feel is the best representative of the values of the caucus? And also those candidates that truly value the LGBTQ plus community. Because I can definitely say, especially in the US Senate race, we do understand that that is a very high stakes race, but once again, we need candidates that truly value our community, that truly engage authentically with our community and do not just only come around when they want something from the community and then will not continue to engage outside of that. So I want to make that very, very clear. That that is a very important component of when we are making our decisions is that we're making decisions based off of who is representative of the values of the Houston LGBT plus caucus. But we also have some amazing candidates we are recommending to endorse Lizzie Fletcher, kat Green, scott Sylvia Garcia.
Speaker 6:Wait a minute, let's say what position they're up for.
Speaker 3:What's going to get into that?
Speaker 3:Oh, ok, I'm sorry all four of those amazing candidates are all running for us representative um in their respective districts. So we have four that we're recommending at the federal level, but we also have um state senator molly cook and state senator carol alvarado, um numerous candidates that are running for judge, and we also have, of course, our very important local races, such as County Attorney Christian Menefee, county Sheriff Ed Gonzalez, harris County Tax Assessor Collector Annette Ramirez. So, as mentioned, we encourage people to vote from the top all the way down to the bottom because, in all honesty, the lower down you get, the closer you actually get to yourself, because, in all honesty, the lower down you get, the closer you actually get to yourself and to things that are going to impact you on your day-to-day. So, while the US presidential election very, very important, let's not forget that our school board, our county constable, our county officials and our city council elections are equally as important, if not more important, because we deal with those individuals on a more regular and day-to-day basis.
Speaker 6:I kind of stepped on you a little bit there when we first started talking about who has received endorsements and the people that you mentioned that are running for United States representatives.
Speaker 3:So please name them again representatives, so please name them again. We have for US Representative District 7, lizzie Fletcher, us Representative District 22, marquette Green-Scott, us Representative District 29, sylvia Garcia and US Representative District 36, dana Steele. All have been proudly endorsed by the Houston LGBT Plus Political Committee.
Speaker 6:That's wonderful. We have an interesting situation with filling the seat that belonged to US Representative Sheila Jackson Lee, who was a longtime supporter of our community. There's actually two places that you can vote regarding filling that seat. Can you explain what that's about and is there an endorsement in either of those?
Speaker 3:Representative Sheila Jackson Lee was a longtime caucus supporter and longtime caucus endorsed candidate and unfortunately, when she passed away there had to be a special election to replace her on the ballot and also there had to be be another special election to fill the remainder of her term. So that's the reason for why there are two elections with respect to that race. In the first one, the one to replace her on the ballot, that was a election that was decided by the precinct chairs of Harris County's Democratic Party and in that particular race the Houston LGBTQ Plus Political Caucus did make a recommendation to endorse Amanda Edwards. Amanda came in second in that race and Mayor Sylvester Turner is now the candidate to run in the November general election for US Districts 18. And then in the special election to finish out the term for Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, we did not make a recommendation to endorse because we did not have any candidates. Submit a questionnaire for our endorsement.
Speaker 6:And her daughter Erica, is seeking to fill that remainder of her term. Governor Abbott could have called an election sooner, but he chose to wait until the November election for it to get on the ballot and therefore it'll just be a few months of having that representation there. The other thing is the bond elections Explain about those.
Speaker 3:We actually made a decision to take a position on three of the bonds. So the bonds are very important because those are, of course, the allocation of funds at the county and even the HISD level. Members of the community can propose a position that they would like the caucus to take. Individuals can come and they literally get the opportunity to present on why they feel we should take a position and once again the caucus body determines if we are going to take a position. So for the Harris County Flood Control District Proposition A we are for that particular proposition. But for the HISD propositions both Proposition A and B we are against.
Speaker 6:We're talking with Brandon Mack, the endorsement chair for the caucus. Brandon is he's the ace when it comes to running a meeting. I'll tell you that he really keeps everybody on track and we know that. It's like herding cats, so I greatly admire his skill in that. What other things do you think people need to know about the endorsements and are the caucus?
Speaker 3:one thing I definitely want people to know is that we want you to be a part of the caucus. Our meetings are held the first Wednesday of every month. I highly encourage people to go to our website, thecaucusorg, to find additional information and become involved, because it is so important that we all raise our voices and are part of the political process. That could be through being involved in the caucus. That could also be as simple as voting, so I highly encourage you to look into the organization, but also look into the amazing candidates that we've endorsed, and to go and vote when voting starts. Early voting is literally just around the corner. Voting starts Early voting is literally just around the corner. It's going to be on October the 21st when it will start and will go all the way up until Election Day being Tuesday, november the 21st.
Speaker 6:I've already voted, because I voted by mail.
Speaker 3:Love it, absolutely love it. So glad that you already have gotten involved in the process already, deborah.
Speaker 6:Well, one thing about it is I get anxiety that for some reason, like it would be election day and I wasn't able to get there, and I do highly encourage people to vote early, because it just makes it you're done, you've cast your ballot and you can go on and maybe volunteer in a campaign or push the endorsement card or do something else to help, because voting is the basis of our responsibilities as a citizen. But there's more that can be done. So if you really want to make a difference, if you really want to have an impact, then getting involved in the caucus, working in a campaign, reaching out to people, talking to people however way you have at your disposal, use your skills and and get the out so that we can change the world for a better place, as Brandon Mack and the other good folks at the caucus do. Thank you for being with us on Queer Voices. This is Deborah Moncrief-Bell.
Speaker 7:I am Brett Cullum and today I am going to be talking about Making Love, the 1982 film directed by Arthur Hiller. It stars Michael Onkeen, kate Jackson and Harry Hamlin, and I am taking a look back with one of my biggest partners, my husband R Lee Ingalls, who is also an author and writer for a magazine as well. So welcome, lee, thank you. Thank you, glad to be here. All right, so we're talking about Making Love, which was a huge film for 1982. And 1982 was actually kind of a big year for gay films, just in general. I mean, we had Making Love from 20th Century Fox.
Speaker 7:We also had Victor Victoria, a movie that one of you like yeah, it's my favorite movie of all time and we also had a couple of other things happening around that time as far as different gay things. Personal Best came out. There was a comedy called Partners which didn't do so well, but you remember that. But Making Love was really an important film because they wanted it to be the love story for the 80s that's what they were saying, and the director was actually the same director as had done love story arthur hiller. So it was interesting. It was kind of a drama about a man who realizes, or rather comes out it's a little bit ambiguous there, but obviously his marriage he has to confront his wife and all of that kind of happens. But what did you think of the movie? What do you think that the tone and the way that the story was told?
Speaker 8:Yeah, so I'll take it back a little bit further than that. In its pre-release it was billed as a love story, as you say, for the age, so a different kind of love story. It was supposed to be the first film with a gay theme, where the two main characters, michael on keen and harry hamlin, were going to play gay characters. So the gay community was really looking forward to having a film with two leading men of the day playing gay characters. We were looking at the visuals of seeing gay representation on the silver screen, the big screen, when it was released. I think there was some disappointment in the way that the characters were portrayed. They were a little bit cliche in how they were written and presented themselves on screen, and then there was a lack of intimacy that we were looking to see and kind of normalized. So yeah, that was my sense of it back in those days.
Speaker 7:Well, it's interesting too. The film is rated R almost for no reason. There's hardly any nudity in it. There's nothing that's really all of that racy about it. And actually Michael Unkean and Harry Hamlin had an agreement with the studio. They didn't want to do love scenes, they agreed to kiss on screen and they had body doubles actually for any intimate scenes, which was kind of a marker of the time. They were very worried about their careers, going into this film and playing gay roles. So it was very interesting that you kind of noted that it wasn't very intimate and we had just done, a month or two ago, a film that was very much showed a lot of sex in it and this one really didn't. The studio was really scared of it.
Speaker 8:Right, and that one was ten years prior to this one, and in this one when I re-watched it, of course, I hadn't seen it in a number of years. So I re-watched it and I was watching specifically, for how did they relate to each other? And so Michael Unking kind of went more in than Harry Hamlin did, and you could tell that they were a little bit uncomfortable with getting close and the more intimate scenes. Kate Jackson, however, I think she did a brilliant job in her acting. I don't know why she didn't get more credit for that, because she did a great job.
Speaker 7:Well, actually there was a rumor that she was going to be nominated for an Oscar. They really thought this was going to be her breakout role and she was trying to get out of television. Of course, kate Jackson was on the show Charlie's Angels and she was a big kind of tv star at the time. She had done Dark Shadows and she had done a couple of different projects for television and this was really supposed to be her big breakout movie role and at the time Harry Hamlin and Michael Uncane were basically movie stars, so they were banking on that and what was interesting is that, as the film didn't do as well as the studio wanted, uncane and Harry Hamlin both ended up going into television, which is where they would really make their mark. I'm not really sure what Kate Jackson did. Necessarily after this. I didn't see her as much, she didn't seem as present as they expected her to, but I was shocked at just how amazing she looked and how great she was as an actress and I was like this should have gone a lot farther.
Speaker 8:Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. She should have done much more after this. Just because of the way she portrayed the character in this movie, I thought she did an exceptional job. Looking at it again after all these many years movie. I thought she did an exceptional job looking at it again after all these many years. She was a standout actor in it. Like I said, the two men not the actors, but the men, the way they were written were very cliche and, looking back at it, were stereotypes of what people thought gay men were like at that time.
Speaker 7:Well, it was interesting, a man named Scott Berg actually wrote the script for this and he thought this was going to be the next big social movement of the country. He thought that what black rights movements meant to the 60s and what the feminist movement was in the 70s, the gay movement would come to fruition in the 80s. He really expected that to happen and so he pitched it to 20th Century Fox and they really kind of were like I don't know about this, but after Arthur Hiller took the project on and they rationalized the film a little bit, saying that it was more about the husband and wife, and I do get that sense. I mean you really do see a lot more of them. I almost feel like they almost have a more intimate and satisfying relationship than the gay relationship between Harry Hamlin and Michael Onkean.
Speaker 8:Yeah, no, I would agree. Yeah, there's very much about that relationship and the confusion. And one of the things we talked about early, right after watching the show, was that they talked about Michael Onkean's character having these feelings of desire toward other men late in his life. And I don't know, I mean from my personal perspective, that was never a question for me. That didn't happen late in my life. I didn't have a time where I didn't know that. So him saying that kind of indicated that this was something that grew inside of him over time and I just I'm still scratching my head over that because that doesn't make sense to me and I just I'm still scratching my head over that because that doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 7:I think the story is a little bit clumsy. It doesn't show enough of his progression, we don't see enough about him and his sexuality to really get a good idea of what he was going through, and there are some bits that feel like they're missing. There's a confrontation late in the film where Kate Jackson's character actually finds a phone number in one of his jackets and goes and confronts this guy and to my disappointment, it's not Harry Hamlin, it's somebody else, it's some random guy and she talks to him and I'm like wait, why didn't this film go with the Harry Hamlin Kate Jackson square off? That would have been dramatically more promising promising, but it was something that we really didn't even see on screen. So I was kind of like wait, where did this come from and why are we all of a sudden going left field here to this thing? I mean, it really didn't do a good job with showing michael on keen or zach's progression and his struggle with that.
Speaker 8:I think it just kind of it was almost like an on off switch, which was weird that was a very odd part of the movie because, I agree with you, it just didn't make sense it had from a movie and the message delivery it gave a sense of they're trying to make some reason over this and give her the information that she needs to kind of move on and figure this out, but just the connections weren't there. So it was just really odd that they put that in there and that way. I think there was a better way to do that.
Speaker 7:But one of the things I thought was interesting for 1982, they showed two very different styles of the gay lifestyle. You had Zach, the husband, and he kind of wanted to mirror that with his new person that he met, bart. He wanted to be monogamous, he wanted to settle down, he wanted to do all of these things, but Bart, who is Harry Hamlin's character, was shown as really not interested in that at all. He was really about the bar life. He was very popular in the bar. He is shown with various guys and things like that and you get the feeling that he really doesn't want that. And I thought that that was an interesting facet of our community to show that struggle between two men. One wants to settle down, one wants to keep going the way that he's been going in LA and just kind of playing the field. And you see that and I think that's something that we struggle with even now.
Speaker 8:Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think that that was probably true to our community. You do see, those in our community today, there are those that are commitment-oriented and those that are not, and a lot of times those that are will pursue those people that are not and you end up with that type of conflict in the relationship One feels like they're not getting what they want and the other one feels like they're being covered and need to escape. So that was true to our community then and now.
Speaker 7:Well, it just feels like a very soap opera-ish film. It didn't feel quite as it feels a little bit like a melodrama, if you will. It didn't go as deep as you want it. Probably I think that may have been the disappointment with, maybe the gay community and Making Love in 1982.
Speaker 8:Yeah, maybe, and I think you know to measure it by today's standards might not be exactly fair, because at that point in time it was the first time that we saw a mainstream production company putting out a movie with the current actors of the day in a gay role. So all of that was new. So, going into a lot of depth, I think that would have been unreasonable to expect at that time. Today we might expect that, but not back then. But even at that again, it you know, for those of us that were part of the gay community and so looking forward to having some representation that way, it fell short for us.
Speaker 7:One thing I thought was interesting was they did a lot of publicity for it.
Speaker 7:Obviously they really went crazy and I watched the Tonight Show appearance of Kate Jackson back when the film was being released and she was being interviewed on the Tonight Show and she mentioned that the plot of the movie was about homosexuality, about two men finding and falling in love and the audience just in love and the audience just went crazy and they almost booed her.
Speaker 7:I mean, it was really kind of a savage reaction. It was a very visceral one and I think the marketing of the film. They really wanted it to appeal to middle America but when they did previews and things like that with audiences that didn't really know what was going to happen once they had the two men kissing, there was a visceral reaction in the audience. It was either kind of laughing inappropriately or screaming or, you know, they walked out. It was a very surprising thing that a lot of people were caught off guard by the imagery and from that standpoint it's hard to imagine that there would be such a strong reaction to two men just kissing and not even really having a detailed sex scene or anything like that.
Speaker 8:It was just crazy that that was the reaction of just middle america back then was everyone naive and thinking that this would be accepted and kind of blossom into something bigger than what it was. Maybe I was surprised by that as well. There's a lot of people you know I'm I'm the only gay person in my family and I'm I think I'm the only one that actually saw this.
Speaker 7:Well, one of the things that fascinates me about Making Love is that it was part of an era where Sherri Lansing was over 20th Century Fox. Sherri Lansing was one of the first women that really kind of controlled a studio for a while, but this year was just disastrous for her. She actually ended up resigning over things like Making Love. Now it wasn't only Making Love, it was also. She had some other things. She had an Al Pacino project called Author Author that didn't do very well. There was another big film called Monsignor that she greenlit, basically, and so when they brought out Making Love, it opened in February of 1982, just in time for Valentine's Day, and it was originally first weekend was a hit. That was the big surprise. It earned about $3 million in one weekend and they expanded the theater count Back then they didn't open them in thousands and thousands of screens, but they went from 300 to 700 within one week, and then that next week it just began to bomb seriously and all this money that they had spent.
Speaker 7:They said that they projected about 13 to 14 to make 14 million to make the film, and then there was about 5 million in advertising campaign and the total domestic box office tally for Making Love was only 6 million, so sherry lansing was in a lot of trouble with that and they ended that year. 20th century fox lost a ton of money and they really wouldn't get it back until well, star wars saved them. Turn of the jedi came out in the summer of 1983 and brought back 20th century fox. But it was sad because we lost shry Lansing, who's a female voice, and I think that that's what's interesting about Making Love is it is a gay movie, but I feel like the most compelling character in the film and the one that has the best emotional journey, kate Jackson.
Speaker 8:I absolutely agree, yeah, and what it does do that we, you know, don't often talk about is illustrate the difficulty for women that get caught up in that kind of situation, kind of stepping way back in time. When I first came out, there were a lot of men that came out late in life and they came out after getting married and having children, deciding that they were going to be true to their nature and go out and live as gay men, leaving their wives, and it really left the women feeling like they had done something wrong or blaming themselves. And you really get that sense from Kate Jackson, at least in part of the film. So I think they did a really good job of that. She did a good job portraying it.
Speaker 7:I think the one thing that made me a little bit disappointed in the portrayal was Bart, who is played by Harry Hamlin. He really doesn't factor into the final act of the film very much. He kind of just fades off. And the film has this setup of them each talking to the camera. You see the wife, you see the husband, you see the lover all talking straight to the camera. They break the fourth wall, they talk about their feelings a little bit forward in this kind of weird dreamy, white-lit background kind of thing. And you think that Bart is going to play a much bigger part and he really doesn't. It's kind of strange that they set it up that way as this incredible love triangle, and then he just kind of fades away and you know we watch as Zach and Claire's marriage gets dissolved and he's just not even a factor. After a while he just kind of goes off and does his own thing, never to be heard from again.
Speaker 8:Right and one of the final scenes they again go back to the kind of cliché of the gay or what was expected of the gay community at that time is they show Michael in his life after all of this, living in New York in a really nice apartment, has a very handsome boyfriend at that time and very successful in that life, which I don't know how many of us actually lived that. So that again was a little bit cliche. But you're right, in the final interviews that they did in the story you kind of get a sense that Harry Hamlin's character was a little bit regretful that he didn't pursue that relationship and I'm not really sure that that would have been true to who he is supposed to represent in our community.
Speaker 7:Now one of the things that most people remember about this movie and I think that it lives on a little bit better than the film itself. There was a theme song, making Love, and it was performed by Roberta Flack and it was written by Burt Bachrach and Bruce Roberts and Carol Bayer Sager and they were nominated for a Golden Globe Award for the song. And Roberta Flack was kind of cornered by the media at that time and said you know, were you nervous to give the film's title song? And she famously answered you know, afraid of singing a song about love, never.
Speaker 7:I was so glad when that song charted and people who did not know that the song was about love between two men loved that song. She loved the idea that all of these people were fans of this song and had no idea what it was really about or what the movie was about. But she basically said love is universal, it's like music. So I thought that was really interesting that Roberta Flack was such a big proponent and such a fan of this movie and so supportive and willing to give her voice to this. I thought that that was a big mark plus column for Roberta Flack.
Speaker 8:Yeah, I agree, I agree, I agree, and in fact even for myself, I did not necessarily in time associate the song with the movie. The song, as far as I was concerned, stood alone.
Speaker 7:Well, I think it's interesting when we look at the narrative of the history of film, because this film came a couple of years after Cruising, which infamously kind of showed that K-Life is negative and a little bit scary and there was a serial killer and a lot of weird things going on at the time.
Speaker 7:There was Dressed to Kill, which Brian De Palma, which is famously known for kind of his transphobic stance about a lot of different things. It kind of is seen today as a film like that. And there was another film called Windows, which kind of equally it was showing that gay people were scary, probably more than anything else. So Making Love 1982, maybe it doesn't do as much as you and I want, but at least it's a positive or more positive look at gay men and it's one of the few that we get before a certain era takes over, because of course this film was filmed, produced, before AIDS and it's right there at the beginning of the epidemic and I think that that's one of the things. Can you kind of talk about that time era and what that was like before?
Speaker 8:because the the first time I was really being portrayed in a positive sense, even though I don't think that most of us that were gay really saw us in ourselves in either one of those characters. But you're right, it came out right as the AIDS epidemic was coming to the surface and becoming more impactful, so where our community had made a lot of progress prior to that, this was where we started to struggle. For that reason, so I think the timing for the movie perspective was unfortunate, but yeah, there was a really difficult time to follow immediately after this.
Speaker 7:There's one scene in the film that seems so prescient. Michael Onking's character, Zach, is an oncologist and Harry Hamlin's character, Bart, comes in to get basically an exam and he says I've got this strange spot. And he asks him to take a look at it. Michael Don King kind of says, no, it's fine, You're fine, there's nothing big there. But it's almost nerve wracking to watch it after what. We know what was coming, Because you think about it and you think, oh my gosh, this is almost like a prescient kind of vision of what gay men are about to go through and that part of it really, really was strange. Now, AIDS was around You've reminded me of that before this but it wasn't really defined yet. I think that they defined it in 1982. We had a lot of the identifiable risks and factors and things like that in 83. Rock Hudson was around 85. But you mentioned that you knew some people before that were affected and impacted by this.
Speaker 8:Yeah, so I left the dance industry and went to work for the phone company in 1979. And right before I left and run the holiday shows, there was one of the dancers that was sick a lot and missing rehearsals and and all that stuff. So and at the time I thought he was just being lazy and didn't want to come and and many of us thought that at the time as well. And then, shortly after going to work for the phone company and this would have been so I started with the phone company in April of 79, so it would have been probably around December of that year.
Speaker 8:That's when I remember starting to see articles being written about the sicknesses, illnesses within the community, and the strange phenomena. And then it wasn't long after that that we found out that this particular dancer was suffering from whatever that was. That this particular dancer was suffering from whatever that was, and, if I recall correctly, he passed away before it. Really everything started to happen, but he was known to be one of those ones that were suffering from whatever that at that time was called the gay plague. So yeah, yeah, I think it was there, but just not in the sense that we had in the early 80s. And you're right, I think the Harry Hamlet character, just not in the sense that we had in the early 80s. And you're right, I think the Harry Hamlet character going to the doctor for that was very unnerving.
Speaker 7:Now, of course, one of the things that people are going to ask is where can I see Making Love Now? And unfortunately, because 20th Century Fox is not all that proud of being a pioneer in the gay big film industry, or rather the film didn't earn a lot of money. There is a dvd that is now currently out of print and I could not find it on any streaming platforms either, but I did notice on youtube you can watch the entire film. It's on there, so you can get it there. The one difference is there there is no Roberta Flack song. Obviously, with YouTube they have some kind of issue with that particular piece of music. It's obviously a very big hit for Roberta Flack, so it's an alternate score at the very end, because you really don't hear that song until the final scene, when you see Zach and Claire finally kind of reconciling that they're divorced now and all of that.
Speaker 7:It's interesting.
Speaker 7:But if you are interested in making love, you either hunt down the DVD and see the original cut of the film and all of that, or you can go to YouTube.
Speaker 7:But, like I said earlier, what's interesting is that when I saw the YouTube edit of the movie, they don't cut any intimate things out at all, because even though this film was rated R, it was rated R solely for the fact that it mentioned homosexuals, two men and them kissing. That was enough back in 1982 to make your film an R. There wasn't anything that could have. It could have easily been PG, and back then in 1982, people were so scared of this material. And so kudos to Sherry Lansing and 20th Century Fox and these actors to taking on this project back then, even though it wasn't quite the one we wanted and it does feel a little bit melodramatic. It doesn't quite mine everything. I still have a lot of respect for Making Love and it's still one of those films that I think is very important and we are talking in segments about different films that we feel are important for that.
Speaker 8:So, and obviously you feel Victor, victoria was a little more successful in 1982 yeah, well, you know, the Victor, victoria, yentl, those characters that are having to live a life where they hide part of who they are, a significant part of who they are. Of course, it's going to be a passion of mine, but you know, and I think that you're right, this was a giant first step for our community in getting us on the big screen. So, yeah, you know, I'm glad it was made, I'm glad that you and I were able to watch it after the fact and kind of look at it from today's perspective. Yeah, it was a good movie.
Speaker 7:All right, so Making Love 1982. Certainly one that's worth looking up for just the history perspective and things like that. And, Lee, thank you for joining me on this trip down memory lane. It's always nice to have you. Obviously, we watch this on our own couch, so yeah, well, thank you for inviting me to participate. There's nobody else. I would want to watch this with.
Speaker 1:This has been Queer Voices, heard on KPFT Houston and as a podcast available from several podcasting sources. Check our webpage queervoicesorg for more information. Queer Voices executive producer is Brian Levinka, deborah Moncrief-Bell is co-producer, brett Cullum and David Mendoza-Druzman are contributors, and Brett is also our webmaster. The News Wrap segment is part of another podcast called this Way Out, which is produced in Los Angeles.
Speaker 5:Some of the material in this program has been edited to improve clarity and runtime. This program does not endorse any political views or animal species. Views, opinions and endorsements are those of the participants and the organizations they represent. In case of death, please discontinue use and discard remaining product.
Speaker 1:For Queer Voices. I'm Glenn Holt, Thank you.
