Queer Voices
Queer Voices
June 11 2025 QV: Out for Education president, Pride male grand marshal and Can you Stay friends with an Ex?
On this episode, we speak with Brandi Lira, the president of Out for Education, and all the good work they do in the community. Then we speak with Daron Yanes Perez, the male-identifying Grand Marshal for Pride Houston 365. Finally, Brett Cullum has a conversation with his husband, Lee Ingalls, about staying friends with an ex.
Queer Voices airs in Houston Texas on 90.1FM KPFT and is heard as a podcast here. Queer Voices hopes to entertain as well as illuminate LGBTQ issues in Houston and beyond. Check out our socials at:
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Hello everybody and happy Pride Month. This is Queer Voices, a podcast and radio show that's been on the air for several decades as one of the oldest LGBTQ plus radio shows in the United States. This week's episode features two presidents of LGBTQ plus serving organizations and a candid conversation about staying friends with an ex and asks are queer exes more friendly to one another than straight exes? Hmm, our show starts with an interview by our executive producer, brian Levinka, with longtime educator and advocate Brandy Lira, president of Out for Education, the city's largest LGBTQ plus scholarship granting nonprofit. The city's largest.
Speaker 3:LGBTQ plus scholarship granting non-profit. This past May we gave away $160,000 to 42 students across the Houston greater area, so we're very excited about what we do and the work that we do for our community.
Speaker 1:Afterwards. Queer Voice's newest contributor, ethan Michelle Gans, conducts his first on-air interview with this year's Houston Pride 365's male-identifying Grand Marshal Garon Yanez-Perez, an immigrant rights and trans rights activist who founded Trans Men Empowerment.
Speaker 4:The country where I come from, Cuba, we don't get to experience getting together in community like that or having parades or any of those cool things that we do over here, so I would have never thought I was going to be Grand Marshal of this parade. For me it was like the greatest honor to be representing the trans men community here in Houston.
Speaker 1:And we close our show with a conversation between Queer Voices contributor Brett Cullum and his husband. Author of the Prairie, has a Rainbow R Lee Ingalls, yes, of Little House on the Prairie lineage, discussing not only queer love and relationships, but queer breakups and exes.
Speaker 5:I think in the gay community we tend to be more forgiving and eventually become friends with our exes. I see that quite a bit. I said I don't see that quite a bit. I said I do not so much in the straight world In the gay world.
Speaker 1:We tend to be more friendly after the fact than those in the straight world. Queer Voices starts now.
Speaker 6:This is Brian Levinck, and today I'm speaking with Brandy Lira, the board president of Out for Education, a wonderful organization here in Houston giving scholarships to LGBT youth. Welcome to the show, brandy.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me so much. I'm really excited to be here and share what we do.
Speaker 6:So what do you do and how did you get started?
Speaker 3:So Out for Education is a nonprofit organization that was originated back in 1999 through PFLAG and Hatch Youth, through the Montreux Center, and we officially gained our 501c3 just a year later. And the mission is simple we just raise money and give it away in the form of scholarships to LGBTQ plus youth students in Houston, or they could live in Houston or be coming to school, um in Houston. And so you know, when we first started we were it was kind of like a grassroots project trying to raise money to give just a few scholarships. Here and there. We were given away about 18,000 to 20 students or fewer, um, and now we've really just kind of expanded upon that Um. This past May, uh, we gave away $160,000 to 42 students across the Houston Greater Area. So very excited about what we do and the work that we do for our community.
Speaker 6:How did you get involved?
Speaker 3:I first heard about for education when I was a high school principal at Eastwood Academy in HISD, and a good friend of mine, emmy, worked with a program called Emerge, but she also sat on the board for Out for Education, and so she kind of just told me hey, I've noticed that a lot of your students here are in the LGBTQ plus community. It's great, they feel proud and out. But did you know that there's a scholarship program specifically for this type of student? I was like, no, tell me more about it. And so that's kind of how it started and I started promoting it across campus along with all of our other scholarship programs and pretty much, I mean we had a lot of scholars almost every year. You know, either apply and get the scholarship or just simply you know the awareness of applying for it.
Speaker 3:So, um, whatever I was deciding to leave HISD, emmy was like, hey, brandy, um, you know, there's a position opening Cause I'm, I'm, you know I feel like I've done my time, I'm ready to leave the board to do some other things. So, um, I applied, got on the board at the time Ray Sanchez was the president and, um, you know, just got really, really involved in the work that we do, because I would see kind of the full circle moment. Being a principal and you're with the kids every single day trying to guide them into something, and then being a part of the programs that give the money and help students to go to school, was just kind of full circle for me. So slowly but surely over the years it just kind of, you know, with the encouragement of my fellow board members ran for president and here we are today.
Speaker 6:So where does the money come from? How are you funded?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So we have a diverse group of board members that are constantly working to do just outreach, right, talk to people about what we're doing. So we have donors that are just kind of hey, we met you, we've heard about you guys, we buy into what you do. Here's XYZ number of dollars. But the bulk of our funds come from fundraising events that we host, either in collaboration with other organizations like Houston Bar Association or the Montrose Softball League, and endowments. So currently we have a few endowments that are fully funded, woodlands Pride being one of our most recent. And so endowments, if you choose to, you start your endowment by paying $5,000 each year for five years until you're fully funded at $25,000. And we give away the interest that is earned within that account in the form of scholarships. But we have a contract in place.
Speaker 3:So you know, if you as a donor want to start a scholarship fund through an endowment, you can actually set the parameters, like I want an art student or, you know, an art major that's going to UT Austin.
Speaker 3:Of course, the more detailed and specific you get, the more limited it is to find a student that fits that criteria. But we try to honor our donors and our sponsors requests because you know we want to make sure that their contributions are going to something that's going to yield the most and the most meaningful experience for them. The other way we give out scholarships is, you know, maybe endowments is just a little too lofty for some donors and so we give away named scholarships for a minimum of $2,500. So if you know you, brian, would like to give out a scholarship, then let's say you donate $2,500. Then in the next giveaway ceremony we would announce the Brian scholarship for Out for Education and it would go to a student in your name. So it's kind of like we're what do we call ourselves? The subject matter experts? You know we're what do we call ourselves the subject matter experts? We are very well rehearsed in just raising the money and being able to send it off to colleges and universities to fund education for these students.
Speaker 6:So kind of like a one stop shop. Yeah, I'm sure you have some success stories success stories.
Speaker 3:Could you tell me some of those? Oh, absolutely so. The whole premise behind this is we want to get LGBTQ plus students an education right. We want to help fund that, but the end goal with that is for these students to give back to the community in some shape or form that benefits or enhances the experience of LGBTQ plus community members.
Speaker 3:And so one of our biggest success stories is Cameron Samuels, and I know they will be proud to hear their name. Cameron Samuels attended KDISD and during their time they were able to form a student led organization called SEAT, which stands for Students Engaged in Advancing Texas, and what they do is they show up and they try to convince policymakers and politicians to do the right thing by students. They're looking at educational practices and curriculum decisions that are made at the high school level and beyond that are anti-trans or anti-LGBTQ, beyond that are anti-trans or anti-LGBTQ, and they're standing up against those and helping to prevent all of the censoring that's going around that prevents some of our community members from seeing themselves in literature and in curriculum across the districts.
Speaker 6:Yeah, we've had Cameron on Queer Voices before.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they are amazing.
Speaker 6:Friend of the show. Now, how do you go about finding students, or how do people find out about you?
Speaker 3:I guess, Sure, so we put out emails to all of the. Well, I guess I should start by saying a lot of the board members are educators in the field. Currently, I myself work at a high school. We have another high school employee, an elementary school principal, and so we're all kind of connected within the districts across the Houston and greater metropolitan area and so we just kind of send emails to the counselors that we know, the college and career readiness leaders across the districts, and just say hey, here's a little bit about us.
Speaker 3:Would you mind putting our link on your scholarship platform? Because every district kind of has this bank of scholarships that are on a website for students to access, and so we just try to get our name on there and we go from there. And of course, social media is a big platform that we use to try to promote our application process. The application always opens October 1st and then it closes usually the last day in February. So word of mouth, social media. We've worked with Outsmart Magazine to promote our scholarship as well. And of course, the Greater Houston LGBTQ Plus Chamber of Commerce has been very helpful in spreading the word as well.
Speaker 6:I understand that there's an interview process that the community takes part in, because my friend JD does it.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. If you have not volunteered or you are a volunteer and you are looking for a WOW experience, I would highly recommend signing up with us to volunteer, because our day of interviews see our students apply. They submitted application with an essay. We need a small community of volunteers to read the essays and score them, and then a month later we call back students for a face-to-face panel style interview at Big Brothers, big Sisters Houston and during this time we need interviews to fill up the five rooms that we have stationed to interview students. Those rooms consist usually about four to five volunteers and the rubric is there for you. All the questions are pre-made. All the volunteers simply have to do is just ask the question assigned to them by the moderator in the room, and it's so impactful the moderator in the room and it's so impactful I'm sure JD talked to you a lot about it it's.
Speaker 3:You know, you really get to see. We hear a lot on the TV, news, radio about you know the state of distress that our trans kids, our queer kids, are in in school. But until you actually hear face to face the stories that they've gone through, not just in the educational system but within their own households, you understand the work that we're doing and why it's so important for us to advocate for these marginalized groups of students. We've had students break down and cry in their interviews because they just realize oh my goodness, I didn't know that there are adult professionals that are out and open and safe, but also willing to advocate and mentor students like me. My teachers don't see me, I'm scared to be out at my campus, I can't even be myself with my own family members in my household, and so it's just impactful. Sometimes it's the first time I've ever met a queer adult who has made it, and so, to be a part of that, I would highly recommend anyone interested in volunteering.
Speaker 6:How do people volunteer? How do they sign up?
Speaker 3:So most of our links are on social media. We also have a website, outforeducationorg, and our social media handle for Instagram is outforedhouston, and in the link in our bio we have all the links. You would need to register to volunteer. If you do that, every time we have an opportunity available we will email the entire distribution list so you would get advanced notice of all of those you could also sign up to. You know, signing up doesn't mean that you sign up to do everything. You can pick and choose which events you want to help us with. We are going to need a lot of help for Pride coming up as well.
Speaker 6:Talk about Pride. What are you doing for Pride?
Speaker 3:Pride what are you doing for Pride Sure? So we will have a booth at Pride 365 this year. I believe that date is I can't remember. Off the top of my head I think it's June 26, but I'm not 100% sure.
Speaker 6:I think it's June 28.
Speaker 3:28th, okay, and we have a booth out there, so we'll have some of our volunteers, possibly some of our previous students or current students. We'll just be talking about our scholarship promoting, looking for donors, anybody willing to make a donation that day, any sponsors that are willing to help us with events we put on. Like Love Not so Straight Up is our annual fundraising event, where we you know, we just throw a big Valentine's Day party and hope that people learn more about us and contribute to the cause. So we'll be out there. It'll be hot but it'll be fun, and so we encourage you to stop by and see us. We will also be at all the other prides Woodlands Pride and Fort Bend County.
Speaker 6:So if you're looking for something to do.
Speaker 3:Come by and see us.
Speaker 6:That's because the gays are everywhere.
Speaker 3:We are, we are, we cannot be stopped.
Speaker 6:Exactly If you're joining us, we're speaking with the board president of Out for Education, Brandy Lira. Now, Brandy, is there anything that we didn't cover that you would like our listeners to know about?
Speaker 3:I just really can't emphasize enough that, having worked in education for the last 18 years and doing the work I do on the board, it's just so important that our students have presence right, that they feel like they matter and they see other adults, other grown people in positions of power or professional positions that are making a difference. The state of everything right now is just kind of beating them down, and when you are a teenager in high school trying to figure out what you want to do, but every textbook, every piece of paper you pick up is against you or seemingly against you, it's tough to say I want to do this with my life and this is how I'm going to do it. So get involved, either financially, by contributing to our scholarship funds or volunteering with us to help these young people understand that they matter and we will support them in their educational careers.
Speaker 6:Give me that website one more time, so people can find out information about your organization.
Speaker 3:It's outforeducationorg.
Speaker 6:All right, well, brandy, thank you for coming on the show.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:Next up we have Queer Voices' newest contributor, Ethan Michelle Ganz, conducting their first on-air interview with this year's Houston Pride 365's male-identifying grand marshal, daron Yanez-Perez, an immigrant rights and trans rights activist who founded Trans Men Empowerment. Ethan, take it away.
Speaker 8:Hey y'all. This is Ethan Michelle Gans, queer Voices, and we're here talking to Deron Yemes, who is the male identifying Grand Marshal this year for Houston Pride 2025. Hello, deron.
Speaker 4:Hi, how are you today?
Speaker 8:I'm doing great. How are you doing?
Speaker 4:Good, so glad I'm here with you today.
Speaker 8:Me too. I'm so glad that you came to share your stories with us. So the Grand Marshals perform ceremonial duties and lead the parade, and they are also the Pride Ambassadors for Pride Month and the whole year, throughout the whole year. They are selected out of the submissions from the Grand Marshal Advisory Committee, which consists of former Grand Marshals. The finalists of the nomination process then are voted on by the community. The committee chooses the trendsetter and distinguished Grand Marshals. These are individuals or groups who have made outstanding contributions to the community, and so now Eran is the male identifying Grand Marshal. So what does it mean to be being nominated? What does it mean to you?
Speaker 4:Well, it means so much Like I was so honored just whenever I found out that I was nominated. I wasn't sure that I was going to win, to be honest, but just being nominated was such a great deal so I was really excited about that. It's just so much. I'm still processing a lot of it and it's like a long process that it takes for them to decide who's even going to be nominated, and not a lot of times you're going to see a trans man being nominated or even winning. So for me, it was like the greatest honor to be representing the trans men community here in Houston and I just want to make sure that I represent them right and give them visibility that they need. We know that the trans masculine community doesn't get a lot of visibility how it should and we're not seen as much much. So I want to make sure that they see us for who we are and I'm just extremely honored about winning this year, to be honest.
Speaker 8:That's awesome. I'm really glad you won too. What are your past experiences with Pride, like your first Pride or a notable experience of Pride?
Speaker 4:I remember the first time I went to pride with some friends and a ex-partner I had. I had only been living in in houston for maybe like two years and I had a friend that was like, oh, we're gonna go to this uh festival in downtown and I was like, what is it? It was like it's like a game festival. I was like a gay festival. I was like it's like a gay festival. I was like a gay festival. I was like, okay, I want to go, I'm gay, so let's go. And I remember whenever I got there and I seen everybody there, so much rainbows and flags and everybody looked so happy I was like I never experienced anything like this. And I remember I had like the best time of my life and I think that was probably like around 2015 when I moved here to Houston. So I had like the best time of my life and I think that was probably like around 2015 when I moved here to Houston. So I went like in 2016 or 17.
Speaker 4:It's not really that long ago that I went to Pride here, but after that time that I went, I went every single year and I will go to the festival, I will go to the parade and it just brings me so much joy to see all the community together and it was like a really new experience for me. Um the country where I come from, cuba, um, they don't have um stuff like that and they discriminate a lot towards our community and we don't get to experience, like you know, getting together in community like that or having parades or any of those cool things that we do over here. So for me it was a completely new experience and I really think about it every every once a while. Whenever I go to pride or when I'm in community, I'll be like wow, and I could never imagine, like probably like 10 years ago I would have never thought I was gonna be grand marshal this parade that I came without even knowing what it was. So it's like completely I don't know. It's pretty crazy to me.
Speaker 8:That is beautiful. That's a beautiful story. What does pride mean to you?
Speaker 4:Well, pride means getting together, celebrating, remembering everything that happened in the Stonewall, the parades, the protests that happened, just feeling joy as being who you are. That's something that I always think about during Pride is who I am. I'm with people that I love, even though I don't know you, you're part of my community and I love you, and I want to make sure that everybody always feel welcome, especially during this month in June. That is like our Pride Month, but not only during that month. You know, all year long. We know that times are hard and one of the things that makes us, you know, go through these times is staying together and making sure that everybody, you know, seems welcome, feels welcome. And for me, pride just means community and, you know, showing up, being visible.
Speaker 8:All right. So how do you think pride is relevant?
Speaker 4:I think it's relevant because, even though a lot of the people don't want it to happen, it's history. It shows what happened years ago. Whenever we went to the streets, we asked for rights, we protested. It shows who we are and what we fight for. So I think it's really important, even though you know, like the cisgender people, the Republicans, everybody that doesn't want us to exist, keep, like you know, going against us, it's important that we keep on showing them that we're here. And it's important that, even if we don't have a Pride Month, even if they take it away from us, whatever happens, we're still going to celebrate, we're still going to show them. So it's very relevant to show who we are.
Speaker 8:I agree. We didn't have a Pride Month a long time ago and we still showed up and celebrated and commemorated. So you're right, we're going to continue to do that. The theme this year is Celebration is Our Legacy. What does that mean to you?
Speaker 4:Legacy is remembering the people that fought for us, the people that was before us. It's important that we celebrate who came before us. We celebrate the ones that fought for us, that actually show us how to continue with this fight. I think that's like the most important thing.
Speaker 8:What would you say? Your number one achievement is for the queer community.
Speaker 4:I think my number one achievement would be funding trans men empowerment. That was a project that I had in mind for a while and actually doing it it was like one of the biggest achievements of my life. We're still a pretty small organization, but we keep on growing. We have a big number of trans guys that keep on coming to our meetings and groups and reach out to us and it brings me so much joy that I can facilitate this space for them.
Speaker 4:We know that there's not many spaces for transmasks or non-binary people that identify as mass, so it's like a new space that I wanted to create for them so they could feel welcome. They can see that there's more people like them with similar experience, even though we all have different experiences. But it's always good to meet people that are going through the same journey that you are, and for me it's been like really life-changing. Trans men empowerment has given me a lot of joy and it continues to bring me joy, Like every time, that I keep meeting more trans guys and I see the good stuff that we're doing for them and putting the word out there for our trans community is very important for me and I just wish that we keep on growing and we keep on helping the trans men community. Also the immigrant community that keeps coming to us because we are a bilingual group so we try to help everyone.
Speaker 8:I'm transmasc myself, non-binary, and I think it's great that you've created these spaces for people like me. Anything that we did not ask about that you would like folks to know about you.
Speaker 4:Well, how I mentioned earlier, I'm an immigrant from Cuba and that's one of the things that I've been focusing on lately too.
Speaker 4:I want to make sure that people know about you know us trans folks that a lot of us are immigrants, about you know us trans folks that a lot of us are immigrants, that we do go through a lot of struggle being trans, but also being an immigrant is now bringing even more uh, you know, to bring more stuff into ourselves, like anxiety and all of those things that you know.
Speaker 4:Um, yesterday, you know, we went to that panel and we were talking about, um, mental health and there was a few things that I heard, like you taking care of yourself and making sure that you take care of your mental health. That's something that I've been wanting to, you know, like talk about with our community, with trans mask membership and everybody, because it's very important, you know, to take care of your mental health and for me, in these hard moments with this new government, it's been really hard to keep them, you know, like going and being like really healthy mental wise. So one of the things that I wanted to share was that I wanted to make sure that every trans person that is immigrant or non-immigrant, but know somebody that is immigrant, they know that they have a space that they can come to with us at Trans Men Empowerment or they can reach out to me. I just really like to represent that because it's important for me to know that they have a place that they can go to.
Speaker 8:Yes, we all need spaces that are safe for us and that's really great that you're providing that for trans masc folks, for immigrants. You know it's been really great for me interviewing you. This has been my first interview on Queer Voices and I have a lot of respect for you, so I'm really glad that I was able to do this and that they gave me this interview for my first one. I hope I do use justice.
Speaker 4:You did great. I was one of those very nervous, but I'm so glad to have this opportunity to talk about these important issues and be able to share a little bit more about myself and what we do at Transgender Empowerment.
Speaker 8:Yeah, you do great work. I've seen your work. I'm really proud of you. I'm so glad that you won. You've done a good job with all the stuff that you've put out there for our community.
Speaker 4:Thank you, thank you so much. You have too Well, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Ethan Michelle Gans, for your powerful and inspiring interview, which also happens to be Ethan's debut on Queer Voices.
Speaker 5:We close out our show with a conversation between Queer Voices contributor Brett Cullum, and his husband, author of the Prairie has a Rainbow, r Lee Ingalls, to discuss staying friends with an ex. Hi everyone, thanks for joining us R Lee Ingalls here and I'm here with my husband, brett Cullum. So the podcast today actually started from a conversation we had this morning which kind of took a really interesting direction. We're trying to figure out some podcasts for the future and one of the topics was my book, the Prairie has a Rainbow.
Speaker 5:I, at the very end of the book, one of the last few paragraphs, I stated that I had three long term relationships one 11 years and two that were seven years and both or all three of them ended kind of spectacularly. But I chose not to define those relationships by the last few months that were kind of a disaster, but rather the years that we lived together that were actually good. I said that I think in the gay community we tend to be more forgiving and eventually become friends with our exes. I see that quite a bit. I said I don't see that so much in the straight world. So I came away with the conclusion that the rule is, or typically, that in the gay world we tend to be more friendly after the fact than those in the straight world.
Speaker 9:Yeah, no, and I think that there's a definite theme there, and one that I've always joked about, because I've remained friends with a lot of my exes, although a lot of them have, like, either moved away or they've passed. Yeah, I'm not sure what that says about me, but okay, but I was really interested because I was saying, well, I think that some straight people do that, I think that there's a you know, on both sides there's probably that, and so I started kind of researching a little bit and I did find out that actually, it's true, lgbtq individuals, especially gay men, are more likely to remain friends with their exes when you compare it to heterosexuals. And they were saying that there was a lot of various factors, including kind of strong network supports within LGBTQ plus communities. Within LGBTQ plus communities, there's shared experiences, routines, the need for social connections that maybe we just are going to run into each other more or that it's just easier to kind of I don't know maintain it. I'm not sure what the secret sauce there is.
Speaker 5:So one of my exes did pass away, unfortunately, and one of them, the first one that we were together for 11 years. We're still friendly, mostly on Facebook, because we live so far apart. Yeah, the shared experiences that we had were good and that's what I choose to hold on to. And we both know those couples in the straight world that get divorced and the two and the two of them can't even be in the same room after decades apart, which just I mean that doesn't make sense to me, and I'm not trying to understand their world or editorialize it at all, but I just say that I see that far too often.
Speaker 9:Well, and to me I mean. My personal philosophy is that if I cared about you enough to have a relationship with you, I still want you to be in my life Now. Do I want you as a romantic partner? No. Do I want to be involved with you in any other way than friendship? No. But I still want to know what happens to you. I still want to support you. I'm still in your corner and I'm still cheering for you and I still want you to make it and I still want you to be involved. And I used to joke anytime that I did a show, like a theater show previews, I would invite at least one X to the previews because I knew that if anybody was going to be honest with me about whether the show was any good or whether I was performing well, it would be one of my X's and I absolutely made it like a policy of at least getting one to come to a preview and tell me yeah, it's a good show or no, you really need to run and this is bad, right, right.
Speaker 8:What were you?
Speaker 9:thinking.
Speaker 5:So that's absolutely correct. Once you go through that spectacular ending, you can guarantee that they are going to be very frank about their opinions going forward.
Speaker 9:Well, and that's nice to have, because you have so many people in your life that either want to impress you or they want to ingratiate themselves to you that sometimes they're not honest. And sometimes, when I ask for an opinion of work or something that I'm producing or something like that, I want an honest opinion. I'm not asking for you to just confirm what I'm doing.
Speaker 5:Right, right, and we'll end in the same way too. If I ask for your opinion, it's I genuinely want what you think about it, and you know what I do from. There is my business, but I'm actually looking for an honest opinion.
Speaker 9:Yeah, but I mean it's hard for some people to do that, and with the next, I mean they've already destroyed a relationship with you, True?
Speaker 5:Okay, are you? Going to get a better.
Speaker 5:Yeah, when you did the research, I did some more thinking about what actually took place from a relationship and how we manage areas that we don't. So I don't think we don't parallel on this. We do, but how we think about it is different. So this is kind of what I came away with. So I stated what I thought from my experience and all my input was a rule and instinctively you went to the exceptions to that rule and started pointing out exceptions, and I agree with that. In every rule it's not 100%. It's like 100% of the time, be that there are going to be those exceptions that we can go to. And I thought, well, is that just to take the counterpoint, or is that being argumentative? And I thought so.
Speaker 5:As I continued to think through that, I thought, well, wait a second, you do the same thing. And I referenced that there's a book that either you read or your mother gave you or something. And the only thing that I remember about it is if you walk into someone's house and they have lots of books, they're this. If they don't have lots of books, then they're not that, and that's the stated rule. And I came up with to that because I feel like I might be an exception to that. So and I thought, ok, so we both do that. So are we being counterpointed and being argumentative?
Speaker 9:I always want to look at both sides of an equation and I always want to look at, well, what if it's this or what if it's that? And I think that there are obviously exceptions. I know tons of people in our world, in the LGBTQ community, that cannot be friends with an ex. They just have some kind of immunity to it. It's not important to them. They feel like, oh my gosh, this person betrayed me and I will never speak to them again and they cannot be in the same room. And then there are some straight people, and I brought up the famous celebrity couple example of Demi Moore and Bruce Willis. They had a big divorce and everything, but now that Bruce Willis is, health is fading. Demi Moore and her family are actually stepping up and helping him.
Speaker 9:And they're still friends and I've read a bunch of stuff lately about some straight couples where they remain friends after the divorce, and certainly in my personal experience I don't see that as often. I mean, I definitely have in my own family it's. It's there's lots of examples of people getting divorced and never talking again, and then certainly with us I mean we have friends. So the general rule is obviously that we are more likely to do that.
Speaker 5:Yeah Well, and embrace the whole thing. So I'm with you. So I have a really large family and there are a lot of exes and I see kind of a mixture of both. Mostly they don't talk to each other. They never want to see each other again, but there are a few that do talk to their exes and from mine and your perspective and experience, I have met some of your exes and, even though I don't think you've actually met any of mine, you are friends with at least one of them on Facebook. So, yeah, not only are we friends ourselves, but our spouses are friends with them.
Speaker 9:That's true. One of the things that I also looked at, too, though, is I was looking at the differences in relationships between the straight world and the gay world. They said that the average straight person has four to 10 partners or relationships, and that they pretty much go about 3.7 relationships on average to find the right one. That was what they were saying, and some studies actually said that men were more likely to have more than women, that they would have up to six, including like two, long-term basically and that that would be the thing. So, and then the, the gay men. It said that we would have more of a propensity to have more relationships than that, and that that might be a thing, because sometimes we don't label them as serious.
Speaker 9:There's a large percentage in just the general population of gay men that are either in open relationships or polyamorous or things like that, so there's a little bit of a fluidity there already. The stage for not having ill will when the everything falls apart, I don't know it's like. It's a very interesting thing, and I think that another part of the equation is that, traditionally, straight marriages are focused around kids, and I think that a lot of times, you have to remain friends with the ex because you are going to co-parent or you are going to have a kid going forward. Now, that's true with gay relationships too.
Speaker 5:I've seen that, where we've seen two gay men break up but they've adopted kids and they have to swallow that, become friends just for the sake of the kids, yeah, but even then I see it different because there's this, you know, like I said there's I have it in my own family and there's some animosity and some anger around the relationship, even when it's involving just the kids having to manage the kids, and I don't really see that so much in the gay community. I think it's co-parenting. I see it as a or pop in the gay couples that I'm aware.
Speaker 9:Hmm, well, how do you navigate this? I mean, you were talking about your examples and obviously you've had what three major relationships before Before us?
Speaker 5:yeah, yeah that you, those communications were happening. But the other two so Roger number two, he used to come to my holiday parties every year for a long time until his new boyfriend passed away and then he kind of fell off the face of the earth. Even the people that I knew that knew him then are no longer hearing from him, so I don't know what happened there. But my first one, Devon, we still chat on Facebook. We haven't talked to each other in quite a long time. I talked to him and his other family members as well. That communication has always been there. Like I said, I'm not going to measure our relationship by how it dissolved, but by the years that it was good and we did. I mean, we had a lot of good times. We were both very young at the time, we did a lot of things together and it was fun. So why not focus on that?
Speaker 9:No, I agree with you, although I've had some serious relationships where I feel like the other person could not be friends afterwards. I don't know what it was. Sometimes it was when I would enter into another relationship. It kind of really fizzled and I think that that kind of like almost that jealousy of, oh my gosh, you're moving on. It's tricky to navigate, especially when one of you if you're both single after you break up. It seems like it's easier. If one of you ends up in a relationship eventually or later, then I think sometimes it gets a little bit weird and I don't know.
Speaker 5:I just I felt some discomfort from some exes with that and around you know, I was kind of the opposite, or at least for me personally, I was the opposite. I was happy when my exes met somebody else and started dating someone else, because that meant I was fully off the hook. Yeah, because when you know, when I'm done, I'm done so and I didn't want there any of this back and forth stuff and you know, possibility of of anything the only thing that's possible is being friends and not hate each other. That's all that's possible.
Speaker 9:That's the only thing that's possible. We're not going to hate each other, true, but I always found some comfort in having friends because I mean, let's face it, if you have an ex, they've seen you at your best. They've also seen you at your worst and you can have, like I said, you can have those honest conversations with them and they kind of know where things are going to go wrong for you. I hate to say it.
Speaker 5:Yeah Well, if they wanted to hit a hot button, they know which ones to hit. So there is that. However, I've never had that experience.
Speaker 9:No, I've never had that experience. No, I've never had that experience either. But I do appreciate the insight and just having that kind of a friend that you can bounce things off of, that they know kind of how you're going to react. You know, I mean, most of our friends do anyway. I mean, most of our friends are very close friends. Yes, we've known them for years. We have a very strange circle of friends, I would say, by most people's measure, because we've had friends. Some of mine have been, you know, over 40. Some of yours have been over 40. I mean, it's just like it goes crazy when you think about it. So it's hard and and maybe that's why we're easier to navigate that maybe we're just long-term people.
Speaker 9:Yeah, I don't know that could be, that could be I mean, although I certainly have had my, my friends that have not lasted as long, that have been like acquaintances that I've known for a season, especially when you look at like theater stuff, particularly like when you were in your dance days, did you have people that you were just friends with when you were just in that company, right?
Speaker 5:right. Because of proximity. We're very, we're close to each other, seeing each other every day in the same space, so we became friends. But then sirs I would say are at least from back in those days very much in the moment when their circumstance changes, that everything changes and we, most of them I lost touch with. I have rekindled some of those friendships because of Facebook, facebook now. But many of them I've never heard from again, and not because I didn't want to, or if I saw them again today I wouldn't embrace them and pick up where we're left off. But yeah, it was a very transient community.
Speaker 9:You know, social media has been wonderful for doing that. One of the things is like when I was doing research for this, I did find a very supportive article in Psychology Today. Was doing research for this, I did find a very supportive article in Psychology Today, of all places that basically said that as a community, we just have a unique degree of importance on retaining emotional support, advice, trust and shared memories, and that absolutely lines up with what I've said, that you've got these things. And they said that we are more likely to go out of our way to maintain a relationship than maybe a heterosexual counterpart, that we are actually going to make sure that happens we make the calls, we set up the right, the planned gatherings, all that kind of stuff we were very good about doing that to party, so we're gonna invite them to parties here.
Speaker 5:You can come to my party one more question came to mind, so does that constitute an argument between us?
Speaker 8:No, did we argue no?
Speaker 5:I didn't think so either, because I thought, you know, from my perspective I don't feel that passionate about either one of those issues that I brought up to take a stand, any serious stand, on it. Yeah, so I agree. No, that was not an argument.
Speaker 9:No, I think it's fun to debate things. I think so too, and I think you should, and I think it's healthy. In any relationship, whether it's friend, whether it's coworker, whether it's your partner, your spouse, your, however you define your relationship I think it's healthy to debate. I think that's what we're here for.
Speaker 9:I mean that's challenged people's beliefs. Talk about things, maybe look at the other side too. I don't know. I mean I think that that's always been an instinct of me to want to kind of look at. Oh, like Joni Mitchell says, I've looked at both sides. Now you know. I mean it's that whole thing of like. I want to figure out, like where's this coming from and what are the counterpoints to this?
Speaker 5:And having the discussion helps you crystallize your thought on it. Yeah, so yeah, and possibly change it, although that might be more difficult.
Speaker 9:So yeah, and possibly change it, although that might be more difficult. No, I think it is difficult to make you sometimes change those. It's hard. It's like we always talk about it in social media and like one of the things about having friends from the past at social media. Sometimes you find out that, oh my gosh, their political views are completely different than mine, yes, and that makes it hard, I mean, and then, like you have a different strain on that relationship. Do you ignore that or do you? How do you handle that?
Speaker 5:Yeah, so obviously it depends on what the relationship is and how close you are and and fond of each other you are, but from my perspective it, if what you're doing is harmful to another group of people, I have a really hard time ignoring that. I might not completely distance myself, but I might limit my exposure somewhat.
Speaker 9:I have to look at the source of our friendship and where it came from. If it is a deep-seated friendship that has spanned years and years and decades and decades, I am more likely to be forgiving of that. But if we are more casual, more recent friends, then I'm probably going to see that as like oh well, maybe we should rethink this, because I'm not sure how to do this, but I navigate it differently with different people. I mean, that's what I think is weird, is like I do too.
Speaker 5:And you're right, it depends on the depth and time and and just how fond of that person I am.
Speaker 9:Yeah, and if they're an ex, I'm probably gonna make fun of them. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 5:I can guarantee you I will talk about them behind their back, everything. No, I'll judge their face when I say talk about them behind their back, everything. No, I'll judge their face. No, no, no. When I say talk about them behind their back, I mean they're standing next to me with their back to me. They can still hear me.
Speaker 9:Oh no, we're a mess. Okay, yes, but I thought it was interesting that they actually have these research things that says this is a common phenomenon, even though they said that it's kind of more of a media thing. That they thought at first, but then when they actually plunged into it, they kind of figured out that it's just the fact that we have to. I mean, it's easier for us to do that, I guess in a weird way.
Speaker 5:I don't know how that is actually the case, but it does. As I said, it does appear to be the case.
Speaker 9:It seems interesting to me that a man and a woman are more likely to not be friends later, as opposed to a man and a man or a woman and a woman. It just I don't understand how that happens, other than maybe it's just the way that the world works.
Speaker 9:Maybe, Maybe it's not as socially acceptable to be friends. It's like that when Harry Met Sally movie cliche of how can you be friends with a woman, you know when you're a man. But we have the same kind of equation. I mean, how can you be friends with a guy when you're have a significant partner or married or you know whatever you know, and yet we do it's an interesting conundrum, I think, and when that was, I thought was a an interesting conversation, yeah yeah, it was.
Speaker 5:It was very interesting this morning. The whole process of getting ready for it was. It was very interesting this morning, the whole process of getting ready for this podcast. Yeah, it was a very interesting journey.
Speaker 9:So that's great. So we've established that we are both kind of sort of friends with most of our exes Although I think I have more exes that I'm not friends with than you and it was mainly because they wanted it that way. I didn't want it that way, but they did, and I wanted to respect their wish for the clean break.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 9:I didn't want to push that topic or make them feel uncomfortable, say, hey, you have to do this or you know I'm going to hound you. But I did reach out Like if I heard of anything that happened to them I would send like a letter or a card or something to just say, hey, I'm thinking about you, I hope that everything works out, you know if. I heard of something that happened to them.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and I would do the same thing.
Speaker 9:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 9:All right. Well then, I guess we are off the hook until next time when we have a heated conversation in the kitchen and it ends up on the podcast.
Speaker 1:Thank you, brett Cullum and Arlie Ingalls, for the hilariously real conversation. Thank you for listening to Queer Voices. I'm Davis Mendoza-Duruzman. Before we close out our show, we want to pay respects to fellow Queer Voices contributor, david Andrew Adminson, who passed away last month. I'd like to play an excerpt from our May 14th episode, with remembrances from producers Deborah Moncrief Bell and Brian Levinka.
Speaker 7:It is with great sorrow that we announce the passing of a beloved member of the Queer Voices family, david Andrew Edmondson. Andrew for many years lent his voice and his interest in arts and culture, as well as his activism as one of contributors to the program. He died on May the 6th after a short struggle with a very aggressive form of cancer. He was a beloved and dear friend. When I heard the news and I started thinking about him and starting my grieving process, I thought of him as always, being my dear and precious friend. And then, when I started seeing other people post on Facebook their thoughts about Andrew and their experiences with him, and I realized that all of them thought of him as their dear and precious friend. He was an activist in Queer Nation. I think that's probably where I first met him. He overcame many things in life, including being a self-loathing gay man. He was diagnosed fairly young with HIV and he made a decision that he was going to live as long as he could, because back in those days you didn't get to live very long. So the fact that he was going to live as long as he could because back in those days you didn't get to live very long so the fact that he did get to make it to age 59 was a win.
Speaker 7:He grew up in Knoxville, tennessee. His parents were teachers, his dad became a union organizer and they were activists. So I guess he came by all of that quite honestly. But he was a devotee of theater and actually had thought that someday that would be what he would do would be an actor. But life led him in many other places, including living in London, in France and in Dublin, ireland, and how he managed to do that was because he could type and he got jobs working as what was called a Kelly boy because they had Kelly girls temporary service. So he was a Kelly boy and that's how he came to do that. But came back to the States and in his early 20s came to Houston to work at the Alley Theater. He had a long tenure there. He had a long tenure with the Houston Ballet and then eventually the Museum of Fine Arts, houston.
Speaker 7:I was one of the fortunate women in Houston who got to date Andrew. He would take me to the theater, we would go to events together and, just like I said, a dear and precious friend and I was talking with our mutual friend, january Fox, and she was talking about her dates with Andrew. And then we were talking about all these women that they all thought of him as their boyfriend because he was such a wonderful man to go out with and spend time with. So that's kind of funny that there's all these women who love this gay man and thought of him that way. Brian, do you have any particular memories of Andrew?
Speaker 6:I worked with Andrew on Queer Voices for several years. 59 is way, way too young to pass away. The whole community is mourning for Andrew. My favorite memory probably was at a fundraiser. We were going to interview somebody and he introduced me and I forget the name of the interview guest, but it was just the way he approached people and the way he was so open and friendly and just I love that about him. He was just so. Everyone loved Andrew.
Speaker 7:He was a very kind man and came from a place of kindness in so much that he did, and I think that's because in part of his life the role had been very unkind to him.
Speaker 7:One of the skills that he developed was in media, so he wrote for Outsmart Magazine, he wrote for the Houston Chronicle, he contributed to Queer Voices I believe he was given an award by the Gay and Lesbian Journalists Association and he would use his knowledge of Houston's media landscape to help with our issues. And he was involved politically everything from Queer Nation to the effort of Hero. And more recently he was working with the O Project, which produced oral histories documenting the AIDS crisis in Houston, and he has raised awareness about that project. He talked about the worst years of the AIDS epidemic, saying that it was like the London Blitz, except that there was no place to go into the safety of the underground to escape the moms. I think that that example that he set of using whatever skills you have can be a way of advancing our causes. Certainly you're right, brian, the community is grieving. We each have our individual grief, but as a community as a whole, this is a very impactful loss.
Speaker 6:It is a massive loss for our community. Deborah, what is your favorite memory of Andrew?
Speaker 7:It's hard to sort them out. Just saying this is just the one thing I just remember always him being so kind, letting me know about things, informing me of stuff, and just the way that he was there for me as a friend, such a lovely man. There will be a Celebration of Life on June, the 12th, starting at 5 o'clock going till 8 pm at Bradshaw Carter on West Alabama. People are invited to make a donation in his memory to the charity of their choice, certainly any of the things that Andrew supported, and certainly Queer Voices being one of them. Gladly, donations in his honor would be accepted in support of KPFT and to Queer Voices. So, andrew, fly high.
Speaker 1:We'll miss you, Andrew. As Debra mentioned, Andrew's funeral is tomorrow, June 12th, from 5pm to 8pm at Bradshaw Carter Funeral Home, 1734 West Alabama Street. Glenn, the Queer Voices engineer, is out of town this week, which is why this episode sounds a bit different, but let's end today's show in the Queer Voices tradition of Glenn bringing us home this has been queer voices, heard on kpft houston and as a podcast available from several podcasting sources.
Speaker 2:Check our web page queer voicesorg for more information. Queer voices executive producer is brian levinka. Deborah mon-Bell is co-producer, Brett Cullum Davis Mendoza-Druzman and Eva Michelle Gans are contributors. The News Wrap segment is part of another podcast called this Way Out, which is produced in Los Angeles.
Speaker 10:Some of the material in this program has been edited to improve clarity and runtime. This program does not endorse any political views or animal species. Views, opinions and endorsements are those of the participants and the organizations they represent. For Queer Voices, I'm Glenn Holt, Thank you.
