Queer Voices
Queer Voices
June 18 2025 Queer Voices New Houston Pride 365 President and Houston Trans Pride and the incomparable Brandon Mack
We speak with the dynamic new president of Pride Houston 365 - Kerry Ann Morrison. Then our own Glenn Holt interviews Jevon Martin about Houston Trans Pride. And finally speak with distinguished Grand Marshal Brandon Mack.
Queer Voices airs in Houston Texas on 90.1FM KPFT and is heard as a podcast here. Queer Voices hopes to entertain as well as illuminate LGBTQ issues in Houston and beyond. Check out our socials at:
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Hello everybody, this is Queer Voices, a podcast version of a broadcast radio show that's been on the air in Houston, texas, for several decades. This week, brian Levinka talks with Carrie Ann Morrison, the new president of Pride 365.
Speaker 2:A lot of businesses are scaling back on how they support any initiative that's DEI-centered, so that is the biggest challenge. We've lost over $170,000 in funding and that is a big impact because it takes almost $500,000 to do Pride.
Speaker 1:I get to go in front of the mic to talk with Jovan Martin about the Houston Trans Pride event the evening of June 27th.
Speaker 3:It's just an event. It's not the Trans Pride day, although that would be great. It's a Houston Trans Pride event. It's a party where we're just going to celebrate who we are Celebrate life. That's June 27th, social beer garden at 7 o'clock.
Speaker 1:Joel Tatum has a conversation with Brandon Mack, the Distinguished Grand Marshal for Houston Pride.
Speaker 4:Know that your voice is valued and know that you don't have to wait. Your turn is now. Take up space, go to those spaces and advocate for yourself. Go to those places and demand to be heard, because your voice is valued and needed and no one needs to give you permission.
Speaker 1:And Brett Cullum and his husband Lee discuss staying friends with an ex. Queer Voices starts now.
Speaker 5:This is Brian Levink, and today I'm speaking with Carrie Ann Morrison, the new president of Pride, houston 365. Welcome to the show, carrie Ann Morrison, the new president of Pride, houston 365. Welcome to the show, carrie Ann.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 5:What is your story? How did you end up in this role?
Speaker 2:Well, long story short, I was at an Afrotech event and I was doing an offline dating show called Take it Offline. I was interviewing folks and I happened to interview Deja Madison, who is now our Celebration Director, and she said to me hey, I want you to meet someone, and she introduced me to Tiffany. Tiffany then introduced me to the organization. I started helping out in multiple ways and from there I was put into a leadership role of co-vice president and from co-vice president I was put into co-presidency and eventually made it to the role of president.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of the backstory. And the reason I made it to that position, or the position where I am presently, is because I've served on multiple pride boards. I moved from Toronto, I lived in Toronto for quite a while and I was there for Royal Pride, executed over six events during Royal Pride as well, as I worked with Pride Toronto during that season, lived in New York for 10 years and I worked with New York Pride. I've worked with Atlanta Black Pride and I lived in LA and I worked with the Trevor Project and with the Trevor Project I was the person who was over all the national pride, so just making sure that they were activated in every pride across the US.
Speaker 5:Wow, that's quite a resume. How did you end up in Houston?
Speaker 2:I realized that, not by choice, but more so by soul. Every 10 years I move and I don't pick a place. A place pick me. I came here for vacation or I don't want to say vacation. I came here to visit a friend and just happened to say you know what? I'm not leaving. And I never left. I turned my apartment into an Airbnb, I shipped my car and I've been here since.
Speaker 5:I have a saying that Houston is a fungus and it grows on you.
Speaker 2:It's a good one.
Speaker 5:It's, I think it's the people that you get to meet here, and it's just, there's a lot of benefits to living here. I just love living here, so I'm glad that you enjoy it too.
Speaker 2:Thank you, and it very much so reminds me of Canada, just the how wide things are from each other. Right, you don't have houses stack on top of houses. It's very clean, it's very diverse and it's it's just has a level of of of calmness to it that I enjoy, and it very much reminds me of Toronto.
Speaker 5:That's good. I'm sure the weather is the same right.
Speaker 2:Oh no, it gets really cold. Sure, the weather is the same, right. Oh no, it gets really cold and, um, I don't want to say this hot in the summer, but it can get up to this.
Speaker 5:Uh, these temperatures that we experience in houston yeah, it gets very steamy here in the summers oh goodness, tell me about it.
Speaker 2:I was prepared for it, though, because I had um, I lived, I stayed I don't want to say I lived. I stayed in Egypt for about two months just before I moved here, and it gets to. I want to say 150. So when I came here, it's like, oh, this is normal.
Speaker 5:Well, I think we're glad that you're here. We need a strong leadership in the Pride Houston organization and I think it sounds like you're the. You bring the credentials to the role. What are the challenges that you face as president of Pride Houston?
Speaker 2:Can. What are the challenges that you face as president of Pride Houston? I can't say there's been many challenges when it comes to serving the community. I think the most challenge that I face is more so in fundraising. It's been a climate where DEI is a problem and a lot of business are scaling back on how they support any initiative that's DEI centered. So that is the biggest challenge. We've lost over $170,000 in funding and that is a big impact because it takes almost $500,000 to do pride, to make sure that everything you know happened, from the little things to the greater big things. So that's the biggest challenge.
Speaker 2:Another challenge is I stepped into the role after Planet started, so having to kind of get my feet wet, learning what's done, picking up on the things that weren't done and keep the ship moving, even whenever there was a hiccup or there was a problem up or there was a problem. Another challenge is just what people's idea of pride was or you know little nuances that they may have had or problems that they may have faced in the past. It's just making sure that I have a diplomatic approach to mend those relationships and let people know that it's welcoming. We're open, let's open the door, let's have, have conversation and let's work in unity. So those were the the challenge I would say that I face. So financial sustainability and the first fundraising, which is all because of the client, of the political climate and, of course, volunteer um staff and capacity.
Speaker 5:So those are the challenges how many people usually attend this event.
Speaker 2:I've heard we've had upwards of 850,000. Last year from the records I see about 300,000. This year, and I presume because there was a lot of nuances last year. But this year I'm expecting a good 300,000 to 400,000 because people want to stand for something this year because there's so many things that are being challenged and that we're facing. 400,000 because people are really there. They want to stand for something this year because there's so many things that are being challenged and that we're facing. So people are coming out to say you can't. You know you can't. You can't take my identity, you can't take who I am, based on the bills that you pass. I'm still going to be me and I'm still going to show up, but I'm still going to be resilient and resistant.
Speaker 2:For someone who hasn't attended a pride event what would you tell them and what advice would you give them? Someone who have not attended a pride event? I remember my first pride. It was in Toronto and you will feel at home and I almost want to get teary eyed because I'm Jamaican and being queer, being gay, being a lesbian is so wrong. And I'm trying my best not to get emotional on this, but just going there and telling myself it doesn't matter what my family thinks, it doesn't matter what my friends think. I just want to find a community where I feel safe, where I feel love and where I might find my, my, my chosen family. So I say go, because you never know what you might find and it might give you the strength to stand tall in your, in your sexuality, in your personality, in who you are as a human. So go, because you may find your chosen family and you may find just that camaraderie and that freedom to express yourself with no inhibition, no hold, no shame, just pure freedom and pure love.
Speaker 5:I know there's other events besides the parade. Can you tell us about those love?
Speaker 2:I know there's other events besides the parade. Can you tell us about those? We have the Grand Marshal reception, which is on June 15th at the Montrose Country Club, and that is where we're really honoring our Grand Marshal. We're reading the proclamation. We're having a nice brunch it's a drag brunch, so that's going to be nice and more intimate. We're encouraging people to come out and celebrate.
Speaker 2:Then we have Rock the Runway, and Rock the Runway is on June 25th. It's at Warehouse Live, one of the most coveted fashion show. I knew about Rock the Runway before I knew about Pride Houston that's how great it is and it's from 7 pm onwards. And then we have Eden, which is the all females event female plus I will say a woman's plus where we welcome everyone, and it is from 9 to 2 30. We have quite a lot of djs there, quite a lot of fun activities and a special guest. And then we have the parade and festival, which is June 28th, and there you have the festival, which is from 11 to 6. We have recording artists and Grammy nominated writer Azeon, who will be performing on stage she's so soulful and that's from 11 to 6 again. And then we have the nighttime parade, which is from 7 to 10. And then, promising and lovely. We are working with Rich's Jeff Harmon and we're doing the official after party from 9 pm onwards at Rich's.
Speaker 5:For people that are excited about Pride this year and they want to get involved. What can they do?
Speaker 2:Oh, they can send me an email. I like to speak with people, so send me an email. I like to speak with people, so send me an email at kmorrisonorg or celebrationorg or volunteerorg.
Speaker 5:Is there anything that I didn't ask you, that you want our listeners to know about? Pride, houston 365?
Speaker 2:One thing I do want people to know is to trust us and believe in us again and give us that ability to show you what celebration looks like. Come out, celebrate, show up in numbers, show up in power. Yeah, that's it, I think that's where I'm going to leave it. Show up in power.
Speaker 5:We're speaking with the president of Pride, houston 365, carrie Ann Morrison. Thank you for coming on the show, carrie Ann.
Speaker 1:Coming up on Queer Voices. Jovan Martin talks about the Houston Trans Pride event next week, brandon Mack, the distinguished Grand Marshal for the Pride Parade, talks about activism, and Brett and Lee discuss what it means to stay friends with your ex. Did you know that KPFT is completely listener funded? There are no underwriters, so it's up to all of us to pay for the freedom to say what you hear here on Queer Voices and on this station in general. That means you participate in our programming just by listening and also by pledging your support. Please do that now by going to the KPFT website and clicking on the red Donate Now button, and please mention Queer queer voices when you do. Thank you, this is glenn, and I'm talking with jovan martin. Jovan, what are we talking about?
Speaker 3:oh, thank you, glenn, for asking. Today we're talking about houston trans pride what is houston trans?
Speaker 1:Houston Trans Pride.
Speaker 3:What is Houston Trans Pride? This is our fourth annual Houston Trans Pride. We honor and give awards to advocates and activists in the community, also some entertainers and organizations and businesses that are working for the better of the trans community.
Speaker 1:What sort of awards do you give?
Speaker 3:We give Moving Trans History Forward Award, we give the Lifetime Achievement Award, and that goes to podcasts people that are using community views to teach about what's happening in the community. What better way to do that is through a podcast.
Speaker 1:Tell me about this Trans Perspectives Award. How long have you been doing it? Who has won in the past? What does it mean to you personally?
Speaker 3:So what it means to me personally, let's go there. First, because Monica Roberts herself had Transgrio, and Transgrio was her blog, her way of keeping our history alive, keeping the stories alive, telling the narratives of what's happening to trans people here in Houston, because that's where it started and she started writing about the trans women murders, and so we wanted to keep that going, and I myself, in honoring her with the Trans Perspectives Award, it goes to the podcast. So this year's recipient is Trans Truth. So Trans Truth started out of the pandemic. Prior to that was Marsha's Plate, and Marsha's Plate talks about trans perspectives. Right, and I'm not sure if you know who Diamond is, but Diamond is just a great vlogger. She does amazing work. She's also an artist and she sings her heart out. I love listening to her music. So, yeah, we want to make sure that our history is celebrated, our presence is celebrated, so anyone in the trans community can be nominated for an award, and the way we choose is if they have more than three nominations, then they will receive an award.
Speaker 1:Personal question here. Jovan, are you trans?
Speaker 3:Yes, I am trans. Yes, I started my transition back in the late 1990s and, yeah, it was different a different climate, different part of our history, whereas now things are so complex and I feel like I was a part of shaping what that path looked like.
Speaker 1:And I see that your preferred pronouns are he, him, his, so it sounds like this is something you've always wanted to do.
Speaker 3:Correct, so I also left out one of my major pronouns, and that is king, because I am previously Mr Trans, new York in the pageantry world. Tell me about that. I was, 2020 and 2022, mr Trans USA for New York City and actually New York State, and I went to compete in Milwaukee, wisconsin, for the title and in 2022, I was first runner up. It was a great experience. I had an amazing time in Milwaukee, wisconsin. I learned a lot, met a lot of people and that pageantry system has grown. If I'm correct, they are in their fifth year and they have grown immensely.
Speaker 1:And what was the transition like for you and what?
Speaker 3:was the transition like for you? My transition has. It was different. Back in the 90s you had to live as the person in the gender that you wanted to be in prior to receiving any type of hormone replacement therapy, which is testosterone for trans men. So, yeah, and my journey was different.
Speaker 3:When I went to the therapist for my first session, the therapist asked me so how long have you been interested in transitioning to a female? And I said, excuse me? And they were like, yeah, you're here because you want to be a female, correct? And I was like no, I'm here because I want to be a male. And the therapist looked at me and was like but you are male? And I'm like, no, I'm not, I was born female at birth. And in that moment the therapist was like wait, what? And the therapist was like well, I'm not too well versed on transitioning that way I know more about males wanting to transition into females way I know more about males wanting to transition into females. So from that day on, I no longer went back to that person and I no longer went to that clinic either, and I made my way to some other areas in the Bronx and started my transition and I worked with a doctor that worked with me every step of the way. We did it together and it was great.
Speaker 3:And here I am today. I have years under my belt as a trans guy. My masculinity is I'm good. You know how people say when is your journey finish or when do you stop transitioning? As people, human beings, we all go through a transition in life. So there's no end to a transition for me, and I'm keeping it on myself because we're always evolving and doing different things, whether it be life, uh, work, education. So, yeah, my, I feel like where I am in my health transition, I am in a good space at the moment.
Speaker 1:You mentioned trans women murders. Was that a problem at some point?
Speaker 3:Yes, and it's still a problem. It has always been a problem. When you talk about hate crimes, there's no separation from oh, I didn't mean it. No, a hate crime is a hate crime. And if you murder someone and try to use the trans pandemic defense, for me it's a little bit late. We're not even doing that anymore and in my eyes, if you're dating someone, you have a discrepancy. You have a discrepancy, say what you need to say and that's it. You have no right to murder someone because your views, your values don't match theirs. You just don't.
Speaker 1:The awards that we were talking about. Do they serve any kind of fundraising function?
Speaker 3:Yes, so Houston Trans Pride is a celebration, right, because oftentimes the trans community only gathers when there's been a murder or when we have to march for our rights, for our lives, because there's a threat to our lives. At this moment, with the administration that is in office, we're losing our health care, and health care is a human right for the community, which is. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around. How do you take money away from an organization that is assisting community members? It just does not compute in my head. So what do we expect community members to do without the funding that they need to live? It's not making sense to me. And then you give it to the rich so that they can continue to be rich, but yet the people that need the funding don't get it. Whole nother story. So back to trans pride.
Speaker 3:It's a day of joy, people, the trans community that attends. They don't have to pay to get in. They don't have to pay for food. The food is catered and I am working on paying for drinks. What that looks like at Social Beer Garden would be. We would pay for that. So, yes, we are taking donations for the cis community allies. Anyone that wants to support Houston Trans Pride. It's a $20 suggested donation at the door. So also, we are looking for sponsors and that can be at any amount. However, we're asking them to pay for the DJ if they can pay for the drink package. The food is already taken care of and, yeah, we'll have some vendors tabling. We'll have three vendors tabling. There's a young lady and her husband are coming to serve cupcakes and candy. So, yeah, it's going to be an awesome day where we celebrate the community.
Speaker 1:This is Glenn. I'm talking with Jovan Martin about the Transgender. Is it A Pride Day?
Speaker 3:It's just an event. It's not the Trans Pride Day, although that would be great. It's a trans Houston, trans an event. It's not the Trans Pride Day, although that would be great. It's a trans Houston, trans pride event. It's a party where we're just going to celebrate who we are Celebrate life. That's June 27th, social Beer Garden at 7 o'clock.
Speaker 1:And before you get away, I want to get your take your opinions on trans youth.
Speaker 3:The youth are the future and we need to give them everything possible. And if we're talking about trans youth, just listen to them, right? Just listen to the children, period. We don't even have to put emphasis on trans kids. Let's just talk about the youth, because the children are the future. We know this right Because we were children and now we're in leadership, and it's a cycle. It's how it works. So if a child comes to you and they tell you how they feel, what's going on with them, believe them, listen to them, even if they're not sure what that looks like because we weren't sure what it looked like when we were kids still support them. Don't say, oh, you don't know what you're talking about, that's a fad. No, we're not doing this. Listen to the children, hear them out. Just let them be their children, for God's sake. They need to be worried about running around, having a great time being kids, not worrying about what adults are saying or doing, being kids, not worrying about what adults are saying or doing.
Speaker 1:If I'm listening and I'm possibly transgender youth or other transgender, how can I get more information or how can I get in touch with you for some help?
Speaker 3:Oh, you can Google my name Javon Martin, trans activist, black trans advocate. I will come up on all social media and I am also a chaplain, and so I do hold space for those that are in crisis. And it's my duty and my honor, because when I had episodes or even times of distrust and I didn't know where to turn, it was my community chaplain that was a safe space. It was someone listening to me and not judging me. So I'm here as a chaplain for the whole community, for anyone, not just the trans community right, I didn't take an oath just to be specific, for the LGBT community. I'm here for anyone that's in crisis.
Speaker 3:Also, just to add on about Monica Roberts anyone that knew her knew that she was a big, bold black woman that didn't stand down from a fight, and she also supported the kids. She supported the youth at every aspect of her life, and this is what we are doing, and it's very important that we listen to the kids. I cannot tell you how important that is. And then I just want to leave you with one thing, glenn Houston Trans Pride did not start with us. Houston Trans Pride was started by Dee Dee Waters, and I believe it was some years ago there was an organization. I'm not sure what the name of the organization was, off the top of my head, but yes, and so we picked it up and we started it from here, and it's been done before here in Houston, so don't think that we are the first.
Speaker 1:Tell me again the name, the location and the date and time of your event.
Speaker 3:It's at Houston Trans Pride and you can find it at Social Beer Garden June 27th at 7 pm and if you would like to help, you can go to givebuttercom backslash Houston Trans Pride.
Speaker 1:You can donate, you can support the organization you can leave a message, Jovan Martin, with Houston Trans Pride. This is Queer Voices. This is KPFT 90.1 FM. Houston 89.5 FM. Galveston 91.9.
Speaker 6:FM Huntsville and worldwide on the internet at kpftorg.
Speaker 1:This is Queer Voices. For one day, the time will come. This is Queer.
Speaker 6:Voices. Today we are honored to be joined by one of the 2025 Houston Grind Pride Marshals, brandon Mack. This year's theme Celebration is Our Legacy is all about visibility, empowerment and unity, and Brandon Mack is a shining example of all three. Welcome and congratulations. Thank you so much, joel, honored to be here. Let's start with your reaction. How did it feel to find out you were chosen as a Grand Marshal for Houston Pride 2025? Distinguished.
Speaker 4:Grand Marshal, I should say I was incredibly honored and it was a very, very pleasant surprise. I previously was a part of the Grand Marshals for Black Lives Matter Houston and that was an amazing honor. Then to be kind of singled out for the work that I've done in the community just was an even more immense honor. So it's a great, incredible feeling.
Speaker 6:For those who may not know you yet, can you share a bit about your journey, who you are and what led you to this moment in the community?
Speaker 4:As I often like to tell people when I introduce myself, I am an activist, organizer, educator, all-around angelic troublemaker. I've been doing community work for the last 20 years, starting in advocacy with the Human Rights Campaign and then getting involved in the Houston LGBTQ Plus Political Caucus, been on the Mayor's Advisory Board. Now I'm on the County Commission as a vice chair, being involved in the LGBTQ plus chamber of commerce. So I've always been around and involved in the community in a variety of different capacities, because for me it is about representation and it's always about making sure that all of us at all intersections, I'm sorry, did I hear Angelic?
Speaker 6:What was that Angelic? What was?
Speaker 4:the term angelic troublemaker. I love that from um Bayard Rustin, who was an influence, uh, on me and, of course, in our community, and he said that what we really need in this world is a group of angelic troublemakers. And so I saw that quote, I was like yep, that's me, and so I always have taken it up ever since.
Speaker 6:Being a distinguished grand marshal is both an honor and a platform. What message or vision do you hope to share through this role?
Speaker 4:Especially right now, with what's going on in our state, in our nation, in terms of the LGBTQ plus community, is being under attack. My voice and platform at this particular moment is for us to, as we have done since the beginning of time, to always be present, to always be proud of ourselves and to remind the world that we're going to be here and that we have a place in space, in this world. So, for me, that's the main thing that I'm hoping to convey this month and every month until I leave this world.
Speaker 6:This year's theme celebration is our legacy. We'll bring out a full spectrum of queer joy resistance in history. What does that personally mean to you, though?
Speaker 4:Once again, a reminder of the importance of Pride Month and the importance of taking that time to celebrate ourselves. We've all of us who are members of the LGBTQ plus community have been on a journey of self-acceptance once again in a world that often tells us not to be ourselves. So that's why it's so important that we take advantage of Pride Month, that we take advantage of any opportunity to stop and celebrate ourselves, because it helps us to keep going, but it also helps us to create the possibility models for the next group to come and take our identities and take this celebration of ourselves even further. What this reminds me of is that we're looking in the past, honoring those folks. We're celebrating our present, but we're also celebrating a bright future, despite what it may look like right now 2025 has brought some new challenges and victories for our community.
Speaker 6:What issues or causes are most important to you right now?
Speaker 4:The inclusion of our entire community is the LGBTQIA+. I'm a big fan of the plus because we are all ever-evolving. People always have new identities that come up, but we need to always make sure that we're always inclusive of our entire community. So that means that even if we are not a member or we identify as a trans person, we still need to care. So for me, one of the biggest issues right now is the attacks that we're seeing happen at the legislative level, in the state and at federal levels, going against our trans community. We have to fight against that. We have got to stand boldly and say that trans is an identity, that is a human identity that needs to be respected and protected, just like everybody else.
Speaker 4:So any sort of things that go against the trans community, I'm like we all have got to go against those issues. We have to fight against those. Protect that community because once again, they come for one, they come for all and we all want to be protected. Other big issues for me is currently the book bans that are going on, because, as an educator, and how important that is, especially at early ages, all the way up, and so once again, it's important for us to see ourselves reflected in education, because when we see each other, it makes it that much harder for us to devalue one another. So that's why we've got to make sure that LGBTQ plus stories are being told in the classroom and in the curriculum, along with every other identity, because we all deserve to be learned about and we all need to be valued.
Speaker 6:Speaking of the LGBTQIA plus community. The scene is pretty rich and resilient. What excites you most about this year's Pride celebration?
Speaker 4:What excites me most about this year's Pride celebration is seeing the inclusion of so many wonderful, amazing people that I've got a chance to work with and also have seen their amazing work in the community.
Speaker 4:We have a wonderful group of grand marshals, from our distinguished grand marshals, our male-identified, female-identified and non-binary-identified and trans-identified individuals. So seeing amazing people being uplifted and celebrated, seeing more organizations, seeing amazing people being uplifted and celebrated, seeing more organizations coming out and making sure that they are known in the community and, once again, just being in community with one another. We had a couple of years where, unfortunately, we weren't able to celebrate the way that we wanted to because of the pandemic, but we still celebrated anyway. Just seeing once again the fact that we're coming together, even at a time where it may seem like we're under attack. But that's the history of us as a community is that when we're being fought against, we still come together. Those are the things that are exciting me about this upcoming year is that we're still celebrating, and also it's the 10th anniversary of marriage equality A great reason for us to all come out and make sure that we're celebrating ourselves and letting the world know we're still here, still queer, and we're not going anywhere.
Speaker 6:What advice or encouragement would you give to younger, queer folks looking to get involved or make a difference?
Speaker 4:To my younger, queer folks who are looking to make a difference value your voice, know that your voice is valued and know that you don't have to wait. Your turn is now. Take up space, go to those spaces and advocate for yourself. Go to those places and demand to be heard, because your voice is valued and needed and no one needs to give you permission. You have the permission just for sheer existence. So that's my biggest advice to them is to raise those voices up, raise them loud and proudly and keep fighting for yourselves.
Speaker 6:Brandon Bay. Thank you so much for sharing your time and story with us. Congratulations again on being distinguished grand Marshall.
Speaker 1:Part of our queer voices community listens on KPFT, which is a non-profit community radio station, and as such, kpft does not endorse or hold any standing on matters of politics. If you would like Equal Airtime to represent an alternative point of view, please contact us through kpftorg or our own website at queervoicesorg. This is Queer Voices.
Speaker 7:Hi everyone, thanks for joining us. R Lee Ingalls here and I'm here with my husband, brett Cullum. So this podcast today actually started from a conversation we had this morning which kind of took a really interesting direction. We're trying to figure out some podcasts for the future and one of the topics was my book, the Prairie has a Rainbow.
Speaker 7:At the very end of the book, one of the last few paragraphs, I stated that I had three long-term relationships, one 11 years and two that were seven years, and both or all three of them ended kind of spectacularly. But I chose not to define those relationships by the last few months that were kind of a disaster, but rather the years that we lived together that were actually good. I said that I think in the gay community we tend to be more forgiving and eventually become friends with our exes. I see that quite a bit. I said I don't see that so much in the straight world. So I came away with the conclusion that the rule is, or typically, that in the gay world we tend to be more friendly after the fact than those in the straight world.
Speaker 8:Yeah, no, and I think that there's a definite theme there, and one that I've always joked about, because I've remained friends with a lot of my exes, although a lot of them have either moved away or they've passed away.
Speaker 7:I have the same thing, yes.
Speaker 8:Yeah, I'm not sure what that says about me, but okay, but I was really interested because I was saying well, I think that some straight people do that. I think that on both sides there's probably that. And so I started kind of researching a little bit and I did find out that actually it's true, lgbtq individuals, especially gay men, are more likely to remain friends with their exes when you compare it to heterosexuals. And they were saying that there was a lot of various factors, including kind of strong network supports within LGBTQ plus communities. There's shared experiences, routines, the need for social connections, that maybe we just aren't going to run into each other more or that it's just easier to kind of I don't know maintain it. I'm not sure what the secret sauce there is.
Speaker 7:So one of my exes did pass away, unfortunately, and one of them the first one that we were together for 11 years we're still friendly, mostly on one that we were together for 11 years. We're still friendly mostly on Facebook, because we live so far apart. Yeah, the shared experiences that we had were good and that's what I choose to hold on to. And we both know those couples in the straight world that get divorced and the two of them can't even be in the same room after decades apart, which just I mean that doesn't make sense to me, and I'm not trying to understand their world or editorialize it at all, but I just say that I see that far too often.
Speaker 8:Well, and to me I mean. My personal philosophy is that if I cared about you enough to have a relationship with you, I still want you to be in my life Now. Do I want you as a romantic partner? No, Do I want to be involved with you in any other way than friendship.
Speaker 8:No, but I still want to know what happens to you. I still want to support you. I'm still in your corner and I'm still cheering for you and I still want you to make it and I still want you to be involved. And I used to joke anytime that I did a show like a theater show previews I would invite at least one ex to the previews Because I knew that if anybody was going to be honest with me about whether the show was any good or whether I was performing well, it would be one of my exes and I absolutely made it like a policy of at least getting one to come to a preview and tell me, yeah, it's a good show or no, you really need to run and this is bad.
Speaker 7:Right, right, what were you thinking? So that's absolutely correct. Once you go through that spectacular ending, you can guarantee that they are going to be very frank about their opinions going forward.
Speaker 8:Well, and that's nice to have, because you have so many people in your life that either want to impress you or they want to ingratiate themselves to you that sometimes they're not honest. And sometimes, when I ask for an opinion of work or something that I'm producing or something like that, I want an honest opinion. I'm not asking for you to just confirm what I'm doing.
Speaker 7:Right, right, and we'll end in the same way too. If I ask for your opinion, it's I genuinely want what you think about it, and what I do from there is my business, but I'm actually looking for an honest opinion, yeah.
Speaker 8:But I mean it's hard for some people to do that, and with the next, I mean they've already destroyed a relationship with you, true?
Speaker 7:Okay.
Speaker 8:Are you going to get a?
Speaker 7:better. Yeah, when you did the research, I did some more thinking about what actually took place from a relationship and how we manage areas that we don't. So I don't think we don't parallel on this. We do, but how we think about it is different. So this is kind of what I came away with.
Speaker 7:So I stated what I thought from my experience and all my input was a rule and instinctively, you went to the exceptions to that rule and started pointing out exceptions, and I agree with that. In every rule it's not 100%. It's like 100% of the time, be that there are going to be those exceptions that we can go to. And I thought, well, is that just to take the counterpoint, or is that being argumentative? And I thought so. As I continued to think through that, I thought, well, wait a second, you do the same thing.
Speaker 7:And I referenced that there's a book that either you read or your mother gave you or something. There's a book that either you read or your mother gave you or something. And the only thing that I remember about it is, if you walk into someone's house and they have lots of books, they're this. If they don't have lots of books, then they're not that, and that's the stated rule, and I came up with to that because I feel like I might be an exception to that. So and I thought, okay, so we both do that. So are we being counterpoint? Are we being argumentative?
Speaker 8:I always want to look at both sides of an equation and I always want to look at, well, what if it's this or what if it's that? And I think that there are obviously exceptions. I know tons of people in our world, in the LGBTQ community, that cannot be friends with an ex. They just have some kind of immunity to it. It's not important to them. They feel like, oh my gosh, this person betrayed me and I will never speak to them again and they cannot be in the same room. Yeah, and then there are some straight people, and I brought up the famous celebrity couple example of Demi Moore and Bruce Willis. They had a big divorce and everything, but now that Bruce Willis' health is fading, demi Moore and her family are actually stepping up and helping him.
Speaker 8:And they're still friends and I've read a bunch of stuff lately about some straight couples where they remain friends after the divorce, and certainly in my personal experience I don't see that as often. I mean, I definitely have in my own family. There's lots of examples of people getting divorced and never talking again, and then certainly with us, I mean, we have friends. So the general rule is obviously that we are more likely to do that.
Speaker 7:Yeah well, and embrace the whole thing. So I'm with you. So I have a really large family and there are a lot of exes. I see kind of a mixture of both. Mostly they don't talk to each other, never want to see each other again, but there are a few that do talk to their exes and from mine and your perspective and experience, I have met some of your exes and, even though I don't think you've actually met any of mine, you are friends with at least one of them on facebook. Yeah. So yeah, we, not only are we friends ourselves, but our, our spouses are friends with them that's true.
Speaker 8:One of the things that I also looked at, too, though, is I was looking at the differences in relationships between the straight world and the gay world. They said that the average straight person has four to ten partners or relationships, and that they pretty much go about 3.7 relationships on average to find the right one. That was what they were saying, and some studies actually said that men were more likely to have more than women, that they would have up to six, including like two long-term, basically, yeah, and that that would be the thing. So, and then the, the gay men. It said that we would have more of a propensity to have more relationships than that, and that that might be a thing, because sometimes we don't label them as serious. There's a large percentage in just the general population of gay men that are either in open relationships or polyamorous or things like that, so there's a little bit of a fluidity there already. The stage for not having ill will when everything falls apart.
Speaker 8:I don't know. It's a very interesting thing, and I think that another part of the equation is that traditionally straight marriages are focused around kids, and I think that a lot of times you have to remain friends with the ex because you are going to co-parent or you are going to have a kid going forward. Now, that's true with gay relationships too.
Speaker 7:I've seen that where we've seen two gay men break up but they've adopted kids and they have to swallow that, become friends just for the sake of the kids yeah, but even then I see it different because there's this, you know, there's, like I said, there's I have it, my own family and there's some animosity and some anger around the relationship, even when it's involving just the kids having to manage the kids, and I don't really see that so much in the gay community. I think it's co-parenting. I see it as a or pop in the gay couples that I'm aware of.
Speaker 8:Well, how do you navigate this? I mean, you were talking about your examples and obviously you've had what three major relationships before and before us yeah, yeah, that, you would say were that and you remain friends with them to a degree, right, yeah?
Speaker 7:yeah, sadly, bob, the third one. He passed away before we really got were able to kind of mend from our separation. But even those communications were happening. But the other two. So, roger, on number two, he used to come to my holiday parties every year for a long time until his, his new boyfriend, passed away and then he kind of fell off the face of the earth. Even the people that I knew, that knew him then, are no longer hearing from him. So I don't know what happened there. But my first one, devon, we still chat on facebook. We haven't talked to each other in quite a long time. I talked to him and his other family members as well. That communication has always been there. Like I said, I'm not going to measure our relationship by how it dissolved, but by the years that it was good and we did. I mean we had a lot of good times. We were both very young at the time, we did a lot of things together and it was fun. So why not focus on that?
Speaker 8:No, I agree with you, although I've had some serious relationships where I feel like the other person could not be friends afterwards. I don't know what it was. Sometimes it was when I would enter into another relationship. It kind of really fizzled and I think that that kind of like almost that jealousy of, oh my gosh, you're moving on. It's tricky to navigate, especially when one of you if you're both single after, after you break up, it seems like it's easier. If one of you ends up in a relationship eventually or later, then I think sometimes it gets a little bit weird and I don't know.
Speaker 7:I just I felt some discomfort from some exes with that and around you know, I was kind of the opposite, or at least for me personally. I was the opposite. I was happy when my exes met somebody else and started dating someone else, because that meant I was fully off the hook. When I'm done, I'm done. I didn't want any of this back and forth stuff and possibility of anything. The only thing that's possible is being friends and not hate each other. That's all that's possible.
Speaker 8:That's the only thing that's possible. We're not going to hate each other, but I always found some comfort in having friends Because I mean, let's face it, if you have an ex, they've seen you at your best. They've also seen you at your worst and you can have, like I said, you can have those honest conversations with them and they kind of know where things are going to go wrong for you. I hate to say it.
Speaker 7:Yeah Well, if they wanted to hit a hot button, they know which ones to hit. So there is that.
Speaker 8:However, I've never had that experience no, I've never had that experience either, but I do appreciate the insight and just having that kind of a friend that you can bounce things off of, that they know kind of how you're going to react. You know, I mean most of our friends do anyway, I mean most of our friends are very close friends. Yes, we've known them for years. We have a very strange circle of friends, I would say, by most people's measure, because we've had friends. Some of mine have been, you know, over 40, some of yours have been over 40. I mean, it's just like it goes crazy when you think about it. So it's hard and, and maybe that's why we're easier to navigate, that maybe we're just long-term people.
Speaker 7:Yeah, I don't know, that could be, that could be.
Speaker 8:I mean, although I certainly have had my, my friends that have not lasted as long, that have been like acquaintances that I've known for a season, especially when you look at like theater stuff, particularly like when you were in your dance days. Did you have people that you were just friends with when you were just in that company?
Speaker 7:right. Right, because of proximity, we're very, we're close to each other, seeing each other every day in the same space, so we became friends. But then answers, I would say are at least from back in those days very much. In the moment when their circumstance changes, then everything changes and most of them I lost touch with. I have rekindled some of those friendships because of Facebook. I'm on Facebook now, but many of them I've never heard from again, and not because I didn't want to, or if I saw them again today I wouldn't embrace them and pick up where we're left off. But yeah, it was a very transient community.
Speaker 8:You know, social media has been wonderful for doing that. One of the things is like when I was doing research for this, I did find a very supportive article in Psychology Today, of all places, that basically said that as a community, we just have a unique degree of importance on retaining emotional support, advice, trust and shared memories, and that absolutely lines up with what I've said, that you've got these things. And they said that we are more likely to go out of our way to maintain a relationship than maybe a heterosexual counterpart, that we are actually going to make sure that happens.
Speaker 7:We make the calls, we set up the planned gatherings, all that kind of stuff. We were very good about doing that to parties.
Speaker 8:So we're going to invite them to parties here. You can come to my party.
Speaker 7:So one more question came to mind. So does that constitute an argument between us?
Speaker 5:Did we?
Speaker 7:argue.
Speaker 4:No.
Speaker 7:I didn't think so either, because I thought you, from my perspective, I don't feel that passionate about either one of those issues that I brought up to take a stand, any serious stand, on it. Yeah, so I agree.
Speaker 8:No, that was not an argument no, I think it's fun to debate things. I think so too, and I think you should, and I think it's healthy in any relationship, whether it's friend, whether it's co -worker, whether it's your partner, your spouse, your, however you define your relationship. I think it's healthy to. I think that's what we're here for aren't we yeah?
Speaker 8:I mean that's challenge people's beliefs, talk about things, maybe look at the other side too. I don't know. I mean I think that that's always been an instinct of me to want to kind of look at. Like Joni Mitchell says, I've looked at both sides now. I mean it's that whole thing of like I want to out, like where is this coming from and what are the counterpoints to this?
Speaker 7:and right, and having the discussion helps you crystallize your thought on it yeah so yeah, and possibly change it, although that might be more difficult no, I think it is difficult to make you sometimes change those.
Speaker 8:It's hard. It's like we always talk about in social media and like one of the things about having friends from the past at social media. Sometimes you find out that, oh my gosh, their political views are completely different than mine, yes, and that makes it hard. I mean, and then, like you, have a different strain on that relationship. Do you ignore that or do you? I mean, how do you handle that?
Speaker 7:yeah. So obviously it depends on what the relationship is and how close you are and and fond each other you are. But from my perspective, if what you're doing is harmful to another group of people, I have a really hard time ignoring that. I might not completely distance myself, but I might limit my exposure somewhat.
Speaker 8:You know, I have to look at the source of our friendship and where it came from. If it is a deep-seated friendship that has spanned years and years and decades and decades, I am more likely to be forgiving of that. But if we are more casual, more recent friends, then I'm probably going to see that as like oh well, maybe we should rethink this, because I'm not sure how to do this, but I navigate it differently with different people.
Speaker 7:I mean that's what I think is weird. I do too, and you're right. It depends on the depth and time and just how fond of that person I am. Yeah.
Speaker 8:And if they're an ex, I'm probably going to make fun of them. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 7:I can guarantee you, I will Talk about them behind their back everything. No, I'll judge their face. No, no, no. When I say talk about them behind their back, I mean they're standing next to me with their back to me. They can still hear me.
Speaker 8:Oh no, we're a mess. Okay, yes, but I thought it was interesting that they actually have these research things that says this is a common phenomenon, even though they said that it's kind of more of a media thing that they thought at first, but then when they actually plunged into it, they kind of figured out that it's just the fact that we have to.
Speaker 7:I mean, it's easier for us to do that, I guess, in a weird way I know, I don't know what the how that is actually the case, but it does.
Speaker 8:As I said, it does appear to be the case it seems interesting to me that a man and a woman are more likely to not be friends later, as opposed to a man and a man or a woman and a woman. It just I don't understand how that happens, other than maybe it's just the way that the world works maybe maybe it's not as socially acceptable to be friends.
Speaker 8:It's like that when harry met sally movie cliche of how can you be friends with a woman, you know when you're a man. But we have the same kind of equation. I mean, how can you be friends with a guy when you have a significant partner or married or whatever you know, and yet we do. It's an interesting conundrum, I think, and when that was, I thought was an interesting conversation.
Speaker 7:Yeah, yeah, and it was. It was very interesting this morning the whole process of getting ready for this podcast. Yeah, it was a very interesting journey.
Speaker 8:So that's great. So we've established that we are both kind of sort of friends with most of our exes although I think I have more exes that I'm not friends with than you and it was mainly because they wanted it that way. I didn't want it that way, but they did and I wanted to respect their wish for the clean break. Yeah, I didn't want to to push that topic or make them feel uncomfortable, say, hey, you have to do this or you know I'm gonna hound you. But but I did reach out, like if I heard of anything that happened to them, I would send like a letter or a card or something to just say, hey, I'm thinking about you, I hope that everything works out. You know, if I heard of something that happened to them, yeah, and I would do the same thing.
Speaker 7:Yeah, all right.
Speaker 8:Well then, I guess we are off the hook until next time when we have a heated conversation in the kitchen and it ends up on the podcast.
Speaker 1:This has been Queer Voices, heard on KPFT Houston and as a podcast available from several podcasting sources. Check our webpage queervoices for more information. Queer Voices executive producer is Brian Levinka. Deborah Moncrief-Bell is co-producer, brett Cullum and David Mendoza-Druzman are contributors. The News Wrap segment is part of another podcast called this way out, which is produced in los angeles some of the material in this program has been edited to improve clarity and runtime.
Speaker 9:This program does not endorse any political views or animal species. Views, opinions and endorsements are those of the participants and the organizations they represent. In case of death, please discontinue use and discard remaining product for queer voices I'm glenn holt.
Speaker 1:For Queer Voices I'm Glenn Holt.
