Queer Voices
Queer Voices
August 13 2025 Queer Voices Trans Advocate/Author Nico Lang, LGBT musical at MATCH and filmmaker Wayne Chella
How do we transform pain into powerful storytelling? This episode brings together three remarkable creators who are documenting LGBTQ+ experiences through different artistic mediums, each offering unique perspectives on resilience, healing, and joy.
Award-winning journalist Nico Lang takes us behind the scenes of writing "American Teenager: How Trans Kids Are Surviving Hate and Finding Joy in a Turbulent Era." Having spent a year traveling to seven states to document trans youth experiences, Lang shares emotional insights from this journey. Most poignantly, Lang describes connecting with Jack and Augie, trans siblings in Florida who lost access to gender-affirming care through Medicaid cuts while recovering from homelessness. "You could almost see the trauma in their bodies like a second skin," Lang reflects, noting how their story resonated with his own childhood experiences of poverty and family struggles.
The conversation then shifts to Aaron Alon, who has created "The Chosen Ones," a musical exploring the experiences of LGBTQ+ youth in conversion therapy. Despite the dissolution of major conversion therapy organizations like Exodus, Alon's research revealed these practices continue largely unregulated across America. His musical, premiering August 28th through September 6th at Houston's MATCH theater, challenges audiences to see the humanity in all characters while acknowledging the profound harm of these programs. "I hope that shows have the ability to soften people's hearts in a way that debate and policy and activism sometimes can't," Alon explains.
Filmmaker Wayne Chella rounds out the episode, discussing how creating autobiographical films about clergy sexual abuse became a pathway to healing. His emotional recounting of discovering his abuser's name on a list of credibly accused clergy, and subsequently channeling that trauma into his film "Insignificant," demonstrates the transformative power of artistic expression. "Releasing Insignificant into the world was my final act of letting go," Chella shares.
What unites these diverse stories is the power of authentic representation to foster understanding and create change. As Lang powerfully states, "Kindness will save us. Listening to other people's stories will save us." Whether through literature, theater, or film, these creators remind us that behind every headline about anti-trans legislation or religious discrimination are real human beings deserving of dignity, respect, and the space to share their stories.
Queer Voices airs in Houston Texas on 90.1FM KPFT and is heard as a podcast here. Queer Voices hopes to entertain as well as illuminate LGBTQ issues in Houston and beyond. Check out our socials at:
https://www.facebook.com/QueerVoicesKPFT/ and
https://www.instagram.com/queervoices90.1kpft/
Hello everybody. This is Queer Voices, a podcast and radio show on KPFT 90.1 FM that's been on the air for several decades as one of the oldest LGBTQ plus radio shows in the southern United States. American Teenager, how Trans Kids Are Surviving Hate and Finding Joy in a Turbulent Era. Nico Lange, as well as award-winning playwrights behind the upcoming conversion therapy musical, the Chosen Ones, aaron Alon, and writer director and producer Wayne Chella. Normally we'd play snippets of each interview as a preview, but this episode is packed from start to finish, so let's dive right into contributor Ethan Michelle Ganz's interview with author of American Teenager, nico Lang.
Speaker 2:This is Queer Voices and this is Ethan Michelle Ganz. We're talking to Nico Lang today, who is the author of a book called American Teenager how Trans Kids Are Surviving Hate and Finding Joy in a turbulent era. Lang is the founder of Queer News Daily and an award-winning journalist.
Speaker 3:So Nika Lang how are you doing today? I'm all right. I'm hanging out with a cat in Youngstown Ohio, so life could be a lot worse.
Speaker 2:Tell me a little bit about what inspired you to write this book.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, you know it was a number of different things, but I think one of the big things for me is that I knew I had the resources to write it Like, I've known a lot of these families because you know, for the uninitiated, I spent a year traveling the country to document the lives of trans kids in seven different states knew because I've been doing this work for a long time and I'm a longtime LGBT plus journalist, I've written for more places than I haven't and I just knew that I had the trust of families to be able to write something like this because a lot of these families, they knew me, they've met me, they've spent time with me, they like me and with that I thought that gave me a certain level of responsibility because I could write a book that I knew very few journalists were positioned to do, meant to do it in a way that really uplifted and celebrated the community during a really tough time.
Speaker 3:So I just felt like, almost in a way, I had no choice. Of course I did, but what was I going to do? Not do it? Was I going to not help these kids speak their truth during a time in which they're being erased? No, like I was just going to do it.
Speaker 2:What was the most impactful interaction you think you had while writing the book?
Speaker 3:God, that's very Sophie's Choice of Us, isn't it? Well, yeah, well, I can't choose between my children, but I will say that I think that the story that that resonated with me like in a not the most because they all really resonated with me, but in a really personal way was the Jack and Augie story in Florida, Because, for those who haven't read the book yet, they were trans siblings in Pensacola, Florida, and their mom is a survivor of domestic violence. They had recently been homeless for three months and Jack had been detransitioned by the state of Florida when she lost her gender affirming care under Medicaid. So the family was like really really going through a lot. At the time that I got there, they were really traumatized, for lack of a better word. You could almost see the trauma in their bodies like a second skin, and that was really hard. It was hard to be there with them. Sometimes it was hard to be with people who are in really severe pain and struggling, but also I related to them so much. They reminded me so much of my childhood.
Speaker 3:I grew up really poor and my mom was a single mom who is often like struggling economically and struggling with mental health issues and also a survivor of domestic violence and getting to tell a story like that that was close to my experience in so many ways just felt really, really important to me.
Speaker 3:I was really grateful that they were courageous enough to like let people in during that time, Because I think it takes a lot of vulnerability to do that to let this person that you barely know stay in your house for two and a half weeks and then, on top of that, like all these people that you don't know are going to be reading out about your story. You know people that you'll never meet, making up all that you know, whatever kind of opinions they want about you, and the idea that they were still willing to do that and to give us the gift of their story, it's just. It's just such a tremendous presence Like they. I really am truly in awe of them for doing this with me and just deeply grateful forever. I'll be grateful for the rest of my life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does seem like a really great project and it seems like it would have been a lot of fun.
Speaker 3:Sometimes it was a lot, it was like every emotion. It was like being hooked up to a car battery of emotion for like, like like a year. We'll just say I was very. I used to be one of those people who, like, looked at a boring day and was just like sort of dreaded it. And now I'm like, oh my God, an hour of quiet, doesn't that sound great? Like where I am right now, it's like sort of like it outside sounds a little country, even though it's in the city. It's very, almost like cricket sort of thing, and I'm like, oh my God, just a minute of peace, it's great.
Speaker 2:So did you? Did you learn anything interesting that you didn't know, that you would learn while you were writing?
Speaker 3:this book. I'm sorry I always feel like such a cop-out when I say this, but no, because I've been doing this work for such a long time I've worked with families of trans kids for so long that I feel like anything I was going to learn I already learned. It wasn't really about what I needed to learn. It's more about what readers need to learn, needed to learn. It's more about what readers need to learn. But I think something I'd kind of not like not forgotten necessarily because you know I'm a person on the surf but you know I'm not done, but I think I needed to be reminded of once again is how hard it is to be a kid already. Like, being a teenager is tough and I just haven't been a teenager in such a long time that I just didn't have any muscle memory of it anymore. Like the kids that you go to school with, right, you don't choose these kids and you're just stuck in class with them and sometimes you like them and you get along, and sometimes they're the most evil little brats on the planet, you know, and you just have to put up with them. Have to put up with them, and so much of the drama in these kids' lives. You know the kids who are in the book was based around. School, was just based around the sort of like daily sociality of the whole thing of who's fighting with whom, you know who's on the outs with whom, who's dating whom, who's cheating on whom, you know. Just all of this, like this interpersonal stuff, and being connected again to like the real experience of like what it's like to be a teen and not what we project on to teenagers. It really brought back some memories, like it really helped or well, not helped like forced me to really relive a lot of my childhood and just remembering what exactly what it was like it was. Just it was a very immersive experience for me emotionally and I think it's also a reminder for all of us adults that these kids are already dealing with a lot. You know. It's like they're dealing with being teenagers and trying to figure out their like path in life and what they're going to do and what college they're going to go to, and trying to make the most of all this while they while they still can that, like they need time to do that and putting all this, all this stuff on them, like anti-trans legislation, and having to fight for their rights and do all of this activism work. It's just so exhausting. It's incredible that they do it. There are so many trans kids who are amazing activists and who are really doing the work and we're all like.
Speaker 3:I'm so grateful to them, I'm in awe of them, but they also just shouldn't have to. Like you know, being a teen is hard enough. They shouldn't have to be fighting all these battles on top of it. So I just hope at some point they just don't have to anymore, that we get to a point in society where we just let these kids live their lives, let them be kids, leave them alone. It's not like people who are affirming them that are taking away their childhoods or something like that. It's the people who are trying to strip away their rights who are giving them no choice but to fight all. So I just hope that at some point they get to be, that they get to just enjoy this little sliver of teenage-dom while it lasts, because the thing is it doesn't last forever. You got to enjoy it while you can. Well, that's the truth.
Speaker 2:Nothing lasts forever. So what do you hope that the readers learn and get from this book?
Speaker 3:I mean it's sad and kind of basic, but I hope they learn to treat these kids like human beings, like I just feel like we have a way of treating trans kids and not we like allies or you know, or queer people, but people on the other side of this have a way of treating these kids like they're, like sea creatures who were recently discovered at the bottom of the ocean. You know just the entire rhetoric around them is so dehumanizing. This conversation is so dehumanizing and they feel it too. They feel just like constantly other. It's a horrible feeling and it's very like lonely making so for people reading the book. I hope they realize that these, you know, these people are just kids but at the same time they're also human beings who deserve the same rights as the rest of us, and it's really pathetic that there needs to be a book that exists that explains that to people that you know these kids are human beings who deserve the same rights as they do. But here we are, you know, and I hope people take that away. I hope people look at these kids expressing their voices and their thoughts and their opinions and their own agency, and they realize that they deserve that, that they deserve to define their path in life however they want, cause I, you know, I do think that these kids maybe taught me one thing not to contradict myself from before and again, it's something I kind of already knew. But I, you know, sometimes I'm dumb and I need to be reminded of things that in the marriage equality movement, like circa, like, oh, like 2007, 2008, and all the way to 2015, right, the kind of dominant message of the movement then was that we deserve rights because we're the same as you, you know, like our love is the same, our hearts are the same, our lives are the same. So give us rights because we're just like you. And you know I don't want to drag that too much because clearly it was effective, it worked, but, like, with all due respect, I don't think that's what these kids have ever been fighting for and I don't think that's what these kids have ever been fighting for and I don't think that's what I've been fighting for either. Like I don't deserve rights because I'm just like someone else. I deserve rights because I'm me, and it's the same for these kids. Like they deserve rights because they are them and they are Americans who are entitled to the same inalienable rights as everyone else.
Speaker 3:I think that we're in this point right now in America where we're just so scared of difference. We're so scared of people who are different from us or have different lives than us or different paths, and it's kind of always been like that, right. You look at like like we used to own people in this country because they were different from us and that difference made us, made them less human in this country because they were different from us and that difference made us made them less human. So I just hope that at some point in this country we're finally able to look at differences being our strengths, that we don't all have to be the same to be like beautiful, that in fact, it's the ways in which we're not like each other that can make us the most beautiful. It's what makes this country strong.
Speaker 2:So did you ever think when you were a kid growing up that you would end up doing a project like this?
Speaker 3:No, I was really poor. I didn't have any connections Like all my friends in college. Like I started out in a journalism program right, but I didn't last in it. Because it's like every time I would ask somebody how they got this, like, oh, cushy internship. It would always be like, oh, my dad made a call, you know, and I just didn't know how I was ever going to get anywhere. Because it's like my dad isn't going to make a call to anybody. You know what I mean. Like I just like my mom it's like the guy she can make a call to are like biker gangs, you know. There's just nobody in my networks that I could leverage to make something like this happen for myself.
Speaker 3:It was just a lot of determination and stubbornness on my part and just being really good, so I never thought that I would get a shot like this. I never thought that anyone would ever open a door for me and the fact is, is that not a lot of people did. I think there were definitely people who helped me here and there, but for the most part, people seemed very inclined to keeping those doors locked. So I had to like not just like look for a window. I had to bust the walls down, and I feel like I'm still doing that.
Speaker 3:It's why I've been, you know, to 38 states on this book tour. You know 92 stops. Because I was told while shopping this book around that there was no audience for it, that there was no market for it. Almost no publishers would pick this up because they didn't think they could sell it. And I'm just again a very stubborn person that I've got to prove to the industry and also to myself that there is an audience for this book. People do want this, people do care, and I will keep touring this country for as long as I have to do that, until I drop dead or they make it literally illegal to tour books, I will still be doing this. Just call me Willie Loman, you know.
Speaker 2:What's next for you now that you've done this big project?
Speaker 3:I do a lot of sleeping right now, so that's pretty much like number one on my priority list. I mean, I'm going to be touring this book for as long as I can. My hope is to have the longest book tour in history because I just you know that point I was talking about before of wanting to prove to the industry that there is an audience for this, there's a community here and stuff like this can sell. Like I feel like I have to make that point in the clearest possible way, and even if it's like a couple of years of my life, that. But then after that I'm working on a secret project that I won't talk about because I don't want anyone to steal the idea. But the other, the thing that no one's going to steal because you know you're not related to her is I'm writing a biography of my great grandmother, who was like an early Hollywood, like dancer and like flapper, who led this like absolutely fabulous wildlife, like a black woman who passed herself off as Turkish in order to have a career in the 1940s, at a time in which, you know, not only like women were being so forced into the home but, on top of that, like black women especially.
Speaker 3:There was just such little opportunity and she just managed to have all of these incredible experiences and just this I know this word is slightly problematic, but like this, like, just like crazy stuff that she was able to do right at a time in which people were told they couldn't have. That, I just think, is so incredible and profound. Like I uh, I only learned about my great-grandmother's existence last year through the uh, through the wonders of 23andMe, and I never really had a role model before. Like I remember as a kid, we had to do this project in school where we created our own Wheaties box and I had to like figure out who my role model would be for, you know, to put on the Wheaties box. And I had no idea.
Speaker 3:Like I looked at the adults in my life and it's like you're all lovely, but I don't want your lives. Like I don't aspire to be you. And there wasn't anybody I saw like out in the world that just felt like, oh, I want what you have. And I think I believe I ended up picking Carrie Strug, who was just like a gymnast at the time, like you know, like won some Olympic medals, right, so it was just like I don't know whatever, and now, all these years later, for the first time in my life I feel like I have a role model and that feels cool. This little, like you know, black bisexual, like chaos demon, who was just like wreaking havoc in Southern California, that feels deeply relatable to me and I love that and I cannot wait.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm sure the listeners will be excited to see that when it comes out. So tell me, is there anything that you would want people to know that I haven't asked you about, or any information you want people to not to?
Speaker 3:have. Support your local bookstore. Go see a movie I'm a big advocate for the cinema and it's dying right now. Go see Weapons it's really great. And just be good to each other.
Speaker 3:Like I were at this point in society where there's just so much like cruelty and evilness for like lack of a better word. It's kind of a cliche thought, but I think that kindness will save us. I think that listening to other people's stories will save us. Being a better person, like is what transforms this. Like forms our culture. There's this idea of like jihad in Islam is often like, misunderstood, like all it means really is transformation. And there's this idea of like the transformation of the self and the transformation of society. And through transforming the self, you know, we transform society. So I hope all of us are able to do that internal work so we can create a better world, not just for these kids, who deserve to grow up in an America that doesn't victimize them all the time, but so that way we create a better America for all of us. I think we all deserve that.
Speaker 2:Agreed. So thank you very much for spending time with me and talking with us today. We really appreciate that. This has been Queer Voices and I'm Ethan Michelle Ganz. We've been talking to Nico Lang, the writer, the author of American Teenager how Trans Kids Are Surviving Hate and Finding Joy in a Turbulent Era. Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 5:Hi, there it's Brett Cullum and I'm here with Aaron Alon of Thunderclap Productions. They are going to be presenting the world premiere of the Chosen Ones, which is a riveting new musical by well Aaron Alon. So there we go. It's described as heart-wrenching, hilarious, ultimately unforgettable. It follows a group of LGBTQIA plus teens in conversion therapy summer camp, which sounds like a lot of fun, and it's all led by an ex-gay minister. And it's a timely story of living authentically, finding your chosen family, even when the world tells you not to. So this is part of a series of shows that the thunderclap productions has done. It's part of the john stephen kellett memorial series and it's all about lgbtq plus equity productions addressing that. Performances will be at the Match in Matchbox 3, August 28th through September 6th. So welcome, Aaron. Thank you for talking to me.
Speaker 6:It's a pleasure to be here, brett, thank you.
Speaker 5:You know it's interesting. I think Conversion Therapy. I just read Boy Interrupted and looked at the movie version of it and all that kind of stuff. Wait, it's not Boy Interruption, what is that?
Speaker 6:I know it's what you're thinking of. Yeah, it's, it'll come to me in a second.
Speaker 5:Boy erased.
Speaker 6:Erased. Yeah, girl, interrupted is the thing? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5:And I always want to call it that boy, erased though I. It's a book, gerard Conley, and a movie that was made, and all about conversion therapy. So what made you want to write a musical about conversion therapy?
Speaker 6:Yeah, you know I had written two large-scale musicals and they're incredibly exciting to write. When you write a really big show, you know like 40-person cast, nine-person pit, orchestra kind of shows. I'm very proud of those shows but very hard to get those sorts of shows put on. So I wanted to focus on a small scale show where I could tell a more intimate story, and I started.
Speaker 6:Oftentimes what I do with shows is, I think, about sort of what topics are interesting. I tend to be kind of an issue-driven writer a lot of times. So I thought about what's the topic that I think is really important and that sort of close to my heart and I started thinking a little bit about conversion therapy. And that's sort of close to my heart and I started thinking a little bit about conversion therapy. I had been a volunteer for about nine years with Hatch, which is a LGBTQ plus support group for queer teens in the Houston area. I was with them for about nine years and I saw a lot of kids struggling and who had gone through those programs and who had, or whose parents were threatening to send them to those programs, even one kid who told his mom he was going to conversion therapy so he could attend.
Speaker 5:Hatch.
Speaker 6:So you know it just, and I realized that this is a subject that I feel like we've stopped talking about, even though it's still a really, really big deal. You know, the big national organization Exodus, one that had been over this, dissolved and that's a really interesting story, actually, about how that ended and they had so much more presence in the media, I think, when there was this big national group over it and it's sort of when that, when they dissolved, it sort of fragmented into all these different pieces and so we don't know how many conversion therapy camps there are. We don't know where there are, how many there are. There's no licensure. Some states have banned the practice for kids, but it's still legal in a majority of the US states, including here, including here, yeah, and in fact I even was looking at some of the like Republican platforms for Texas and I found it explicitly endorsed and one of the past Republican state platforms for the state of Texas. They said you know, we support a version of conversion therapy that they had mentioned there and historically they had done that a number of times and they just kind of used whatever the latest trend is for something that is conversion therapy but has a different name.
Speaker 6:So, anyway, I really I care about this issue and I thought this could be a story worth telling and I do what I do in a lot of shows. I spent about a year just digging into research and learning all I can. I interviewed survivors of conversion therapy. I read different testimonials that people had put out there about their experiences with it. I tried to learn about the people who were like high level on the other side too, people who were supporting conversion therapy and creating versions of conversion therapy, and how did they justify it and how did they try to make it sound rigorous and scientific and yeah, and so through that process, I developed this original story about six queer kids in this camp who are all there under different circumstances and all have their different stories, but what this one summer means to them when they all come together in this one place.
Speaker 5:So it's really about their relationships and bonding kind of trauma bonding, if you will, over this experience.
Speaker 6:I definitely think that's a big part of it.
Speaker 6:You know part of it is showing what conversion therapy looks like and, honestly, it's a, it's one of the nicer versions of conversion therapy. These are all people who really care about kids. They think they're doing good in the world. You know, they're trying to do something that they think is loving and helpful with these kids. There are a lot worse versions of conversion therapy than that, so I tried to give it to show that even in its best forms, it's incredibly dangerous and scary, and so one part of the story is about conversion therapy. The other part is what happens with these six kids. Five of the six kids do not want to be there Of course.
Speaker 6:Yeah, there is one kid of the six, though, who actually had to talk his parents into letting him go there, and I, interestingly, as I've talked to different people working for this project, I've met a few of the adults who were once that kid. The kid who was so upset about being gay, very religious, really wanted to, as they say, pray the gay away and opted to go into a place like this, desperate for help. So there's, both of those sides are represented in this, and there are different types of kids here too. There are lesbians, gay boys, there's a pansexual teen, there's a trans teen. So, like I'm trying to, even in this small group, show this idea, this is a huge camp. These are six kids that they chose to put together into one small group. Who are they? How do they come together and what ways do they support each other, scare each other, challenge each other, help each other all of that stuff.
Speaker 5:Well, you mentioned Exodus a little bit earlier and they used to run the big love and action group out of Memphis, tennessee, and I had some interaction with them as a young man. My parents were very interested in me going to that. But they will not accept you unless, or back in those days, they would not accept you unless you specifically wanted to be there. I mean, they absolutely were like you know, if you're going to buck us, you know, move on to the next thing. So it's interesting You've got this kind of dynamic going on that you've got five, obviously, that are kind of not super happy to be there. But I think there is kind of a desperation whenever you end up in a conversion camp.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it just happens.
Speaker 5:How did you go about casting this? I mean, obviously it's a sensitive subject and it looks like you've got a great cast assembled for it.
Speaker 6:Truly great cast. Yeah, we have a wonderful cast and also great leadership at the helm. Ayesha Asari is directing and choreographing it. Philip D Hall is the music director. Our production team is also incredible.
Speaker 6:We've been really very thoughtful about how we put together this group of performers and this production team. We actually had multiple rounds of auditions Now about a year before this, even I put out a recording of the Chosen Ones. So I, through my own personal production company, I cast and released a recording of the all the songs in the show. Three of the original six performers from there are now in this, originating the roles that they sang on the recording. The other six sorry, the other five actors are new to the project and we had multiple rounds of auditions.
Speaker 6:You know, in some cases it was immediately clear wow, this person is going to be amazing. In some cases, we wanted to see more people and wanted to see more people until we really found someone where we're like, yes, this is the person who will match with this role in this cast, and the group of people we've put together again is just truly remarkable and we're so excited to see them bring it to life well, speaking of the recording, is there a way that you can go in and listen to that?
Speaker 6:absolutely so. If anyone wants to just visit thechosenonesmusicalcom and click on music and video, I have links there to all of the streaming services where it's available. So it's available on all the standard ones, you know, apple, amazon, spotify, pandora, and, yeah, they have access to any of those streaming services. Spotify is a great way to get it for free. Some of the other ones require subscriptions and stuff like that. We're gradually creating videos and putting those videos out on YouTube too. So there are currently, I think, two studio recordings out, one of a song called the Secret of Makeup and one of a song called Joseph Joe, where people can watch, watch them singing and singing in a studio setting kind of thing and hear the songs in that context too.
Speaker 5:Now, if I've got this right, you did the music, you did the lyrics, you wrote the book you did the orchestration. When did you realize that you were this like musical person that could construct and create a whole thing like one man band kind of style? I mean that's very rare.
Speaker 6:You know it depends on the project that I'm working on too. So I started as a classical composer. I got three degrees classical composition In fact, that's what brought me to Houston originally was to complete my doctorate at the Rice University Shepard School of Music in composition. So I did a lot of training in classical composition, which of course, includes things like orchestration, and then, basically as soon as I finished my degrees, I realized I don't really love writing classical music. There are other things I'm more passionate about and I went to earlier passions of writing plays and musicals. That was around 2009.
Speaker 6:I started writing some short plays that did really well in like the competition circuit and they were performed around the country in New York and Houston and stuff like that. And these are little plays, like 10 minute plays, but it improved me as a writer where they wrote lyrics and I wrote music, and I was not a good lyricist at this point, but I was a really good editor and it was sort of a masterclass when I worked with this really great lyricist where he'd write lyrics, I'd send back feedback and I'd watch how he would make revisions, and that process created stronger songs for our show that we were working on, which was never finished but it was still. We produced some really beautiful work, I think. But it was still a. We produced some really beautiful work, I think. But it also helped me grow so and I'd been involved with theater since I was a little kid, and so just a long time passion of theater and musical theater.
Speaker 6:And then I started writing my own musicals and was in sort of coordinated a musical review, a comedic musical review called Death. The Musical helped co-found a theater company here, thunderclap Productions, which is, you know, still going strong, and started writing additional shows. And you know, the way that I grow and become stronger at the areas where I'm weaker is partially by doing, but largely by just sharing my work with other really talented people and getting feedback and doing the same for them. So I have all these wonderful other writers that I work with and we share work with each other and we give each other feedback and we help each other grow. And sometimes I'll collaborate with someone on a musical and sometimes I'll write it by myself. But I do think it's that old expression writing is rewriting, yeah.
Speaker 5:I am very familiar with that.
Speaker 6:I'm sure you are.
Speaker 5:Unfortunately, I'm usually under a deadline where my writing has to just go. I put it out in the world after just a couple of rewrites. But anyway, chosen ones. Okay, so it starts august 28th and runs through september 6th, and this is the first time that's being fully mounted as a musical, like basically this is the first production of it, full scale.
Speaker 6:Yes, this is the first. This is the first full production of it in. This is the first production of it full scale. Yes, this is the first. This is the first full production of it. In fact, this is the first musical of mine, a full length musical that's gotten a full professional production. I've had a musical film bully that was very successful in the film festival circuit for a couple of years, had shorter works done, I've had plays done, things like that, but this is the first time a full length musical of mine is actually being performed in a professional capacity, which is very exciting are there any plans after this, like, if this goes well, what would you like to see happen to the chosen ones?
Speaker 6:yeah, I would like to start trying to market its other theaters around the country. Obviously, dreams of going to things like broadway or the west end are always. I think anyone who writes musicals that doesn't think they that doesn't admit they want that is lying a little bit, but you know it's for most shows that is kind of a dream, but it is. This is a small show. I think it could do really well off Broadway. I think it could really do well in the regional theater circuit. I think it's really relevant right now, actually more relevant than when I wrote it. It's getting worse, not better, for LGBTQ plus people in the US right now, as I think we know, and I think this is becoming more relevant and more painfully necessary as time goes on, and I do hope. I think that shows have the ability to soften people's hearts in a way that debate and policy and activism sometimes can't, because it's not an issue, it's a story, it's a group of people, it's a group of people that you really care to love, come to love and care about in a short amount of time. I think about shows like La Cage, a Fall being done in the eighties, you know, and just how, despite the incredible homophobia at the time and all of the fear around the AIDS epidemic, people still came to the theater and fell in love with those characters and came to care, and I hope that a show like this has the potential to do that too.
Speaker 6:I tried not to make it too preachy. I tried to, you know, really have these characters exist authentically in this world and see what that looks like. And I also I have kind of like an allergy to two-dimensional villains in my work in general. I think most people that are villains are really just people who believe what they're doing is right and they're doing some really painful and horrible and terrible things. You know, I don't think that a lot of people go out in there in the world just rubbing their hands together and saying you know, I can't wait to commit evil. You know it's and that's kind of what happens here Like the conversion therapy camp is doing some real harm. But these are people who are loving and caring and they think they're doing good in the world and they want to do right by these kids and they care about these kids. That doesn't preclude them from doing some real harm.
Speaker 5:You know, I remember when Exodus actually imploded and the head of that actually went away with his husband and moved here to Texas. I have no idea how that happened and I thought that was the end of this kind of thing and I was really surprised to find out that conversion therapy is alive and well. I'm sure it is thriving in this era. I'm sure it is now aimed where it used to be aimed at the gay community. I'm sure now it is horrifically aimed at the trans community. So specifically to lump them in there with that which has to be even more scarring to you know, just your whole identity, just completely, and your gender and your concept of who you are being attacked by something like this. So it is an interesting topic and it is unfortunately relevant to today, which I'm surprised because I really kind of felt like we were past all of this.
Speaker 6:That's part of the reason why I wanted to write this, because I think a lot of us felt that way. All that happened is visibility decreased, and that also means that a lot of these organizations are operating with some really scary people and some really scary shadows, and it's happening all across the country and not just in the U? S too. There's a big movement in the UK against this right now, in 2021, there was a new documentary that came out, came out about this called pray away, and you know and I've even just working on this project when people found out what it was about I I've had so many people say to me I went through that and it's yeah and it's.
Speaker 6:Some of them are very young and it's still very much happening and it's still shocking, but yeah. So I think a lot of these things sort of went underground a little bit more, but they're still there and underground is a scarier place for them to be, because there are no real qualifications, there are no certifications, there's nothing. There's no organization looking over organizations like this and making sure that they're not just abusing children even if you think conversion therapy isn't in itself, abuse, and there's some scary stuff going on.
Speaker 5:Well, it's really a misnomer because it's not therapy and it's not accredited by any kind of psychological or psychiatric thing. It's religion. I mean, let's call it what it is. It's religion and it's indoctrination and it is absolutely kind of one-sided on that and that is how they've couched it, that's how they've been able to be out there and that's the way that they continue to kind of do that. As long as they're supported by that, then they're going to be out there. So it is a very timely musical and I can't wait to see what you've done with it and how you kind of created songs around it and experiences and developing these relationship with these kids. And then, you know, you talk about the villain, which I'm assuming is the pastor or the person that runs it, and things like that. So it'll be a great experience to witness the chosen ones and kind of figure out that it's still relevant to our time to witness the chosen ones and kind of figure out that it's still relevant to our time.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I wish it were not, but I do hope that this helps people learn more about it, talk about it, really think more deeply about it. I'm hoping with increased awareness there can be increasing things like oversight and state bans and stuff like that. The scientific consensus is absolutely not in favor of this. There are versions of it that look more scientific, that are done by psychologists and psychiatrists and that have other types of names. There's actually an about section of the musicals webpage the chosen ones, musicalcom, slash about, and it includes a whole section on conversion therapy with some links and some more information about the different ways that you might see this referred to. But yeah, I mean, there are all different versions of this, but none of them are supported by the major psychological and psychiatric organizations. The scientific consensus is firmly against it.
Speaker 5:And if you want more information, thechosenonesmusicalcom is where we can find basically about the, about the musical, a deep dive into that. Of course, thunderclapproductionscom is the theater group that is producing it. Ironically, you have a heavy hand in both. So, yes, we'll find out about that. And, of course, starts its run august 28th, goes through september so, and it will be at the match theater. So thank you so much, aaron. I always find you fascinating. I really love Thunderclap. I really love getting to see your work. This is going to be an exciting part of my summer and definitely something that I've been looking forward to seeing for a while.
Speaker 6:So congratulations, thank you. I'll throw one last thing out there. If anyone listening to this wants to use the discount code PRIDE20, you can get general admission tickets for $20 with that code. Oh, wow, okay. And opening night is, as always, with Thunderclap. We try to make it pay what you can, so you can get in for any amount you can afford.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah. No, it's always a great structure to do that, but I will see you then.
Speaker 6:Thank you so much, Fred.
Speaker 5:Thank you.
Speaker 8:Hello everyone, my name is Jacob Newsom, with Power of the Narrative, and we are co-hosting this episode with KPFT Queer Voices. I have a very special guest. His name is Wayne Chella. He is a director of the film's insignificant talisman I forgot about that one and Mercury. A lot of it is based on wayne teller's life, and so, wayne, would you like to tell the audience more about yourself and the works that you've produced?
Speaker 7:yeah, sure, uh. So I really I started writing at a pretty young age. I I can remember as far back as like eight or nine. Uh, with my up the street we were writing like little plays that we would put together and put on. And then as I got older, that kind of grew. And then at 15, I wrote like a murder mystery novel with a good friend of mine. And then around the time I was like 18, around the time depicted in the film Mercury, I started to get into filmmaking and specifically filmmaking with that group of friends that's depicted in that film. Those friendships met an acrimonious ending and so I really didn't do much for a long time and then, I guess in my early fees, I started writing again, kind of got the bug. Uh, yeah, so the results are, as you mentioned, talisman, insignificant and mercury.
Speaker 8:So yeah, which I love, by the way. I love all the. So I'm biased because I love all the films. But, um, you know, I I'm curious too, like why did you go from writing physically to filmmaking? Because you could have just stayed as, like, an author published a bunch of books, so I'm curious about why you felt like that's where your process needed to evolve.
Speaker 7:I don't know that. I really can answer that. It was visually. I've always been a film buff, always really enjoyed watching television shows, been a film buff, always really enjoyed watching television shows and then eventually got to a point like I said. You know, when we made Talisman, I had written that script. I have a writing and I know I'm talking about a previous work, but it connects. So when we were shooting Talisman, we we originally shot that as a short film just to see how it was going to go. Listen, the actors had so much chemistry together Colin included in that that we weren't even finished shooting a short film and we had already decided we would spin that off into a web series. So we shot the short film in 2018. We shot the rest of the series in 2019.
Speaker 7:And in between, on Valentine's Day 2019, I woke up just like any other morning, grabbed my phone which is unfortunately not uncommon and just kind of like checked in to see what the world was up to right and there was a news article from a local television station in Philadelphia talking about clergy sexual abuse. And that was a game changer for me, mainly because I had avoided all of that stuff for a very long time. So anyway, I read the article. It kind of shook me up a little bit. There was a list of credibly accused clergy that had been investigated, and again, credibly accused. I opened that list and I started scrolling and I knew I knew that that person's name would be on the list. And sure enough it was. And it was right about at that moment that my husband walked out of the bathroom and into our bedroom, having just gotten out of the shower. He's getting ready for work and I guess I'm pretty pale, but I was probably white as a sheet at that point and immediately he was like you know what's wrong and I had mentioned something. But that's what I used to do If I was close to people I would. I would hint at or or even in some cases like joke about what had happened to me that day. It just didn't feel like a joke anymore and I went to work and I had to stand in front of like a hundred people at work and give a presentation and as soon as I was done, I like everything just washed over me. Yeah, I went and I talked to a couple of really close friends. One of them was like hey, you should probably go talk to somebody, and I did.
Speaker 7:But so it was in between this process of making talisman that this all kind of comes to light. Oh, you know, unfortunately with trauma you don't have all the pieces. Sometimes and that was certainly the case for me was I knew that I had all of these experiences that had happened to me over the course of my lifetime, a bunch of which didn't really make a lot of sense to me. And unfortunately, that day, you know, I went to work and I was like was I sexually abused or assaulted? Is that what happened? I looked it up and I read about it and I was like this is me, they're talking about me. For whatever reason, it put into perspective some of the things that had happened to me over the span of time. Immediately I knew that I needed to share that story, because if that can happen to me, it can happen to anybody. I am fairly lucky in the sense that, despite the trauma and the things that happened to me in the past, that I was able to overcome that and be reasonably successful. And I felt like, you know, it was just very important to me to share that so that people understood that they weren't alone. So I immediately started writing Insignificant.
Speaker 7:And again, you know, we were in the process of filming talisman. Colin and I had gotten really close, just because Alan is one of the most creative people I know, and so we just clicked on that level and so he would bounce ideas off of me, I would bounce ideas off of him, and vice versa. And I got pretty deep into writing the series and I was like I need to, I need to talk to somebody about this. And so I sent it to Colin and he read it. And I was like I need to, I need to talk to somebody about this. And so I sent it to Colin and he read it and I kind of like waited as he read, wondering what he was going to think of it. And he came back and he was like we need to make this now. And I was like, well, it's not gonna be now, but you think it's good. And he was like, yeah, we need to tell the story, the story needs to be told, and that's kind of how that that kind of came about. So, yes, it was very important for me to get that story out into the world.
Speaker 7:And then, you know, we actually we casted it, we filmed it and then I'm putting it together and right before we're about to release it into the world, there was, like this overwhelming sense of dread because I had. I had basically told my story, beat by beat, retelling of my story, but it is deeply grounded in my personal truth, in my experience. The names are changed, the circumstances may be a little bit different, but that is pretty much my life. And so, yeah, there was this moment of panic where it was like, do I really want to put this personal story out into the world? And I panicked for a couple of days and then, you know, remembered why I had done it in the first place, which which was to help people and to, like I said, let them know that they're not alone.
Speaker 8:Thank you, I hear you. I'm holding space for your story here.
Speaker 7:Thank you and that means a lot. It really, it really does. It really does. Again, obviously, having had somewhat similar experiences, you understand the stigma and the things that we feel, I think, as you come to terms with those types of issues, and I think that was really that was the hard part for me. I remember and it's I guess it's not a funny story, but it's a funny story. I mean, my friend, like I said, was like you should probably talk to somebody and I said, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 7:And then the person that I reached out to to talk to I had seen 27 years before, but I was a kid and was hyper aware of the fact that my parents were involved in that. And you know, as a 16, 17 year old kid, you don't think about, hey, there are HIPAA rules and things like that, that you have privacy, but I didn't, I didn't know that, and so I did not talk about those things. I talked about other things that bothered me, but I did not mention my sexual orientation and I certainly didn't mention anything that had happened to me. And so, 27 years later, faced with that, I called and, sure enough, he was still in practice and I had always we'd always had a really good rapport and I really liked him.
Speaker 7:I just wasn't honest with him and so, sure enough, I reached out and he called me back a little later and I could hear the smile over the phone, you know. He remembered me and he said, hey, what's going on? And I said, listen, you know, I just kind of rediscovered this issue. That happened it was the reason that I was seeing you 27 years ago, but I couldn't be honest about it, and now I need to be, and so, yeah, it was just.
Speaker 8:This whole experience really brought a lot of things full circle for me, that being one of them relations so I'm sensing a lot of themes of like, maturity and also like lessons, of receiving that you're you're still working through to this day of like, receiving, goodness, receiving all these things is this? Does it sound like about right for you?
Speaker 7:it sounds spot on it, even when it comes to the work itself, you know, insignificant in particular, really seemed to resonate with people. It won a lot of awards, we played a lot of festivals. It, by all accounts, was successful, not the financial way, but ultimately it accomplished what I wanted it to accomplish, which was it got out there, people saw it and they were affected by it, and I think, as a creator, that's what you look for. You're trying to tell a story that moves people in some way, right. Sometimes that way is just to entertain them, yes, but sometimes it's to make them feel something deeply, and I think it did that.
Speaker 8:If I can ask, what does the legacy of your work look like and how do you envision the impact to be that would satisfy you?
Speaker 7:I guess I would have to say what I said originally, which is if, if one person saw insignificant and perhaps saw a little bit of themselves in wes or even in anthony, those characters who were clearly both struggling in different ways and they realize that they're not alone, or they see, you know that west suffered abuse and realize that they're not alone, if one person is impacted positively by any of that, or even mercury for that matter, then that's the legacy that you. That would be amazing to me.
Speaker 8:So because you answered a lot of these, because it was like was there a moment in making either insignificant or Mercury on the set during writing or editing, where the emotional weight of the work became undeniable?
Speaker 7:I will tell you, yeah, so it's funny when we, when we shot insignificant, it was it's this really weighty story, right, yes, but it was this joyous experience and I really mean that Overwhelmingly positive. The actors who appeared in Insignificant were just amazing people who really took that story to heart and really wanted to bring it to life and really it was like I had partners in that. You know, a lot of times when you, when you make a film, people are excited about the story you're telling or they're excited about the opportunity they got. Yes, but these folks really were excited to put something out into the world that could make a positive impact and help people. Right, even an insignificant. You know, izzy, the female lead, is struggling with an eating disorder and that was something that was just. It was so important to her as an actress to put that out into the world and bring light to it. So we had this joyous experience. It literally we became a family on set. Everybody still keeps in touch to this day, still keeps in touch to this day.
Speaker 7:But the last shot of Insignificant is actually just. It was part of a montage at the beginning of Insignificant, which is of Wes's parents fighting. Yes, and that was the. That was the final thing. We shot and we did three tapes and each. It was like reliving my childhood because my parents that is my experience, my parents did divorce. They were not a great match, right. Uh, there was a lot of domestic violence in my home and yeah, so, anyway, by the third take of that scene, where the mother kind of like charges at the father and like is screaming at him and he clears all the things off of the countertop and everything goes smashing, I called cut and I disappeared because I just broke down. It was really emotional, it was very heavy and I will never forget one and Keith Pichardo, who played miles, yeah, they came and they found me and I was just crying, I was, I was done, and they just came and there were no words even spoken and the two of them just hugged me and just stayed that way for a few minutes and, you know, I got myself together.
Speaker 7:But yeah, it was, it was very emotionally heavy and it was.
Speaker 7:It was heavy filming it, it was heavy writing it, because writing it required me to go back and and sort of relive, you know, those experiences that were not all that pleasant. You know, insignificant is not just about the fact that wes, you know, survived sexual assault or sexual abuse. It's also about what it was like growing up in the 90s, as as a gay kid, yes, who went to an all boys school, who had all of these things that were seemingly working against him, that made it difficult and ultimately, yeah, it was a very heavy period, very heavy couple of years, but ultimately it wound up being like therapy, because sometimes when you walk through that dark stuff, when you're done walking through it and reliving it, you get to the light right and you feel lighter because you have now dealt with that and and sort of let it go, and releasing insignificant into the world was my final act of letting go, I think I want to ask you too, so I'm not going to assume have you done inner child work before I?
Speaker 7:have not.
Speaker 8:Okay. So I ask a lot of guests this and I even do this for myself what would you, knowing what you know now, what would you go back and say to like young Wayne?
Speaker 7:I think the best advice that I could give myself if I was younger is to give yourself a break, because I didn't do that. I was very serious. Even from the time that I was a child, I was very serious. I didn't smile a lot and it's weird, it's like this dichotomy, because I'm a very lighthearted person, I love to laugh, I love to smile and I believe at my core there's a lightheartedness to me, but the expression of that never came through. It was very much heavy for me as a child. And, yeah, I think I would tell young Wayne to give himself a break and to not take everything so seriously. You have to have fun and you have to see the joy and you have to let people in, like we talked about earlier. Yes, and that's not who he was, it just wasn't you know. So, yeah, I think that's that would be my advice.
Speaker 8:Sound like there's a lot weighing down his spirit. What would you want somebody who sees your work, especially somebody that's queer, isolated, cut off from a lot of the friendships what would you want them to take away from their work and believe about themselves?
Speaker 7:Be your own person. Do it your way. There's no right way. Everyone is walking through this life. Everyone has their own challenges and their own obstacles. Be yourself and find your own way, because listening to people's advice and them telling you how to how to live your life or none of that matters man. None of it matters. The most important piece is to be able to look in the mirror and be proud of who that person is.
Speaker 7:And that goes for everybody, not just queer people, anybody. You have to be able to look yourself in the mirror and be okay with that person, and I am fortunate because of these experiences that I got to a place where now I kind of agree with people. I'm not going to say I'm a great guy, but I like that person. I do think that that person that I see in the mirror has really good intentions and wants to help people, whether that's through narrative or that's through being a presence in their lives or trying to mentor people, whatever that looks like. I always want to leave something better than I found it. That's my philosophy. So, you know, be okay with who you are and, regardless of people who may try to put you down or try to make you feel bad about that, don't listen to that crap, because it's crap. It really is. You know is and find your way. Surround yourself with people that you love, that will love you. That is called chosen family. Sometimes, unfortunately, that's not blood family and that's okay. I'm fortunate my blood family is still in my life. I didn't lose anybody because of coming out or anything like that, but the people that I hold dearest are my chosen family. Those are the people I want to be around. I've just been amazingly fortunate to encounter the people that I have, and the one thing I guess I would say is there is something to learn from everybody that crosses your path. Sometimes those things are what not to do, or sometimes those are things that you might want to emulate and incorporate into your own story. But I've just been blessed, and you know that. That goes for colin, it goes for my writing partner, it goes for all of the actors who helped me bring these stories to life and all of the folks behind the scenes that did. Uh, aaron's uh, daughter is my co-director on insignificant. So you talk about full circle moments.
Speaker 7:Right when I started talking about, you know, getting back into filmmaking, aaron was like, hey, you know, asha has this experience. And I was like, okay, and so she came and she helped us and and, uh, yeah, it's just like I said, there's something positive that can be taken from every interaction that you have with somebody. And you know, do that. Look at, look at the light in the world. There is so much darkness. Look at the light in the world. There is so much darkness. We hear about it constantly. It's in the news, it is everywhere and it is real and it is legitimate. But there are still so many beautiful things in this world and so many amazing people and so many amazing stories that don't get that focus from the media, that are out there waiting to be told and discovered. And, yeah, go out and follow your dreams and tell your story, because everybody has a story.
Speaker 8:Thank you, Wayne. This has been Power of the Narrative with Jacob Newsome guest star. Wayne, Please go check out Mercury and Significant Talisman. I would love to have you on for future episodes because it's been incredible Anytime.
Speaker 4:This has been Queer Voices, heard on KPFT Houston and as a podcast available from several podcasting sources. Check our webpage QueerVoicesorg for more information. Queer Voices executive producer is Brian Levinka. Debra Moncrief-Bell is co-producer. Brett Cullum, davis Mendoza-Druzman and even Michelle Gans are contributors For Queer Voices. I'm Glenn Holt.
