Queer Voices
Queer Voices
January 14th - Breaking The Binary In Art And Life with Clarity Welch and Andrew Roblyer
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This week, we are going non-binary! Brett drafts Clarity Welch of the Catastrophic Theatre to talk about their journey refusing to label themselves as this or that. Along the way, we discuss queer theater and pop culture figures who broke the binary. Then, non-binary director Andrew Roblyer tells us about their 12-hour directing marathon, THE DIRECTOR'S CUT. This event will take place on January 24th at Studio 101, located on Spring Street. So let's peek behind the curtain of androgyny and agender!
If you need tickets for the DIRECTOR'S CUT:
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/directors-cut-the-marathon-tickets-1976783189734
Queer Voices airs in Houston Texas on 90.1FM KPFT and is heard as a podcast here. Queer Voices hopes to entertain as well as illuminate LGBTQ issues in Houston and beyond. Check out our socials at:
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Setting The Stage
SPEAKER_00This is KPFT 90.1 FM Houston, 89.5 FM Galveston, 91.9 FM Huntsville, and worldwide on the internet at KPFT.org.
BrettWelcome to Queer Voices. I am your host tonight, Brett Cullum, and for this show, we are going to break the binary. I talk with my friend Clarity Welch about their journey as a non-binary person and artist in Houston. Clarity is affiliated with the Catastrophic Theater. They are an actor, and they have become a pioneer in playing their agender on stage. Next, I talk to Andrew Robler, who uses he they pronouns. Andrew has an event coming up called The Director's Cut, which will be a 14-hour marathon of him directing scenes with over 20 local Houston actors. You can attend this event for just a bit or the whole thing. It takes place on January 24th at 101 Studio, located on Spring Street. So first up, it's time to put some clarity on non-binary.
Non-Binary Terms And History
BrettHi there, this is Brett Cullum. And today we're talking about non-binary. Now, this is a term that many people don't realize is actually quite old. Many cultures had terms and concepts, like the Native Americans had two spirits that existed in a space that was genderqueer or not really defined as male or female. Now, the term hit mainstream awareness in around 2010. And if we accept transgender as a term for an individual who is not the sex that they were assigned at birth, then by default, those who don't choose either identity are trans. So it's something even the LGBTQIA plus community finds hard to define and come to grips with. So I asked
Clarity’s Early Identity Journey
Bretta friend. Clarity Welch identifies as non-binary, and I'm so glad to talk with them about their journey and what this all means to them. So welcome, Clarity, to Queer Voices.
SPEAKER_06Hi, thank you, Brett. Hi, glad to be here.
BrettYes. Okay, so how did you know? When did you start thinking, all right, this is what I am? I'm neither this nor that.
SPEAKER_06I mean, the there is a little bit of the cliche for me where I never super felt the I felt I was I was assigned female at birth and I never super identified with that. But there were times that it was comfortable. I remember being 13 when I started saving change for my top surgery, which I quickly spent on shoes. From top to bottom. And and then it took me some time because I'm I'm 35 now. So it was a really it was a difficult time for me. There was I didn't know there was an in-between until I was in my 20s. Um, and so that's when I sort of learned about it from friends. I've always been sort of online a lot with people, and that's the easiest way. And I think why uh a lot of the reason why young people are so queer now is that they can connect with people all over the world. And so those answers are easier to find now than they were when we may have been younger.
BrettYeah. No, I knew that when I grew up there was not really an easy way to find out about these things at all.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, you had to be out in the world, which was hard to do until you were a certain age. Yeah.
BrettRight. Yeah, because the the library definitely didn't have it at my school. No, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Definitely. I didn't see anything about it unchecked, though.
BrettBut it's so interesting to me when you when you go to define yourself, because I'm so used to this idea of, you know, I'm a Cisque man. And so I just think of myself in these terms, and I have my trans friends that are transitioning to another gender.
SPEAKER_06But still within the binary, yeah.
BrettYeah, but they're still within that. So it was like, okay, all right, I know what you're shooting for. Right. But there's non-binary. Yeah, it's like, how do you decide? All right, I'm gonna take something from this column, I'm gonna take something from that column, or I mean, does it just give you a sense of freedom?
Freedom Beyond The Binary
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I think that is a lot of it, is the freedom of so I personally don't think of gender as a like in between man and woman, and then there's stuff in between. I think of it as an endless array of possibilities, a buffet of aesthetics, of feelings, of presentations, of all kinds of things. You know, we uh in a in my ideal world, everybody has their own particular gender because I think we made it all up, you know? There's no right way to be a a cis woman. So there's no right way to be any gender, really. There's no right way to be anything. So I think that that for me was very comforting to have the freedom of not having to align to any of the boxes. And it released any anxiety about trying to be the best of whatever it was that I was trying to be at the time gave me.
BrettThere is a lot of, I would say, kind of a toxic hypermasculinity or hyperfemininity in those two identifications. I mean, that's always tough. And I've always found myself in this space where I definitely have some traits of one and some traits of the other, just by default of, well, sometimes I'm just a good old girl. So it's very interesting to me. So what do you what are the challenges of this identity? What are the things that you come across all the time? What what do people say when you say, hey, I'm non-binary and I use they them pronouns?
SPEAKER_06It used to be a lot harder. Now these days it gets easier and easier because people have at least heard of it now. So I I came out in 2015-ish, something like that, and which is, you know, now going on 16 years ago. And um, while it wasn't early in the terms of it existing, of course, because it's been around forever, it felt early in in the Zeitgeist. Um, and I felt very alone for a long time. Um, I was the only person in real life that I knew that was non-binary, or I like I like the term gender expansive. I didn't know anybody else. I didn't people didn't get it at all. And they what was most frustrating was that they did not try. They didn't try to get it. Whereas, like uh with um somebody transitioning either to male or female, you do sort of there was an inherent willingness to try with that among people of open minds. Whereas even people that I knew that I knew were queer or
Isolation, Pushback, And Misconceptions
SPEAKER_06had very open minds, leftists, all these people, they just didn't care to get it. And there was the grammar argument, there was the um the biological sex argument, all of these things that really um were isolating. So that was really one of the biggest things was feeling really, really alone for a long time about it. And uh I've had some off and on troubles with um some prejudice, but it hasn't it's weirdly sometimes not as bad for me personally, because I s I do mostly present as I seem very feminine or I can pull off being feminine, and so people don't always clock me. Like they see me and they think, oh, that's a that's a little weirdo, but they don't necessarily think that I'm under the trans umbrella. So but I have still had some issues with that in my life, and that can be not only frustrating but scary.
BrettBut I think that's what's interesting about the non-binary community, is that it is hard to clock somebody that is non-binary. Yeah. It's very easy to kind of go out and realize when somebody's aiming for that statement of I am this and I'm that. This is this is easy. This is how I'm presenting. I remember, but I remember growing up, there were non-binary celebrities. Kind of I mean, there was like Boy George, he wasn't really in drag. I mean, he wasn't really becoming like a woman, but he wasn't quite presenting mask either. And then there was Annie Lennox, the singer from the rhythmics.
SPEAKER_06Yes, I loved Annie Lennox going out.
BrettYeah, huge feminine energy, but there was also this kind of fierce, kind of masculine thing, and she could pull off a mask look, and it was like, wow.
SPEAKER_06Well, what we called it then was pushing gender boundaries, you know. They were forming. Yeah, genderqueer, which was definitely one of the earlier terms and still used today, yeah.
BrettYeah. And in fact, you know, uh, RuPaul, the big drag queen, was like he did that kind of expression for a long time. Yeah, totally. Like just that was his default setting.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
BrettAnd and one could argue might still be. I don't know. We're not good friends. I haven't called him lately. So do you feel like it's a it's more of an identity? Does it overlap in any of your other areas?
SPEAKER_06Yes, it is an identity for sure. Um, but it's kind of more of a feeling, I think. But I I think a lot of you know, identities are that. It's because you can't really how do you say what makes you feel trans? I don't know. I just do, you know? Um, and and I and I for a long time I thought I might just be a man, just might be a trans man. And and then I thought, well, maybe I don't have any gender, and and I still kind of feel that way, but like, I don't know. I used to be very rigid in the identity thing where I'd say, well, I identify as a gender, like as in one word, agender, zero gender, without a gender. And now I've I've used non-binary as a blanket term for a long time, and now I also sort of use queer as a blanket term because I'm also bi, so I'm just like, I'm a whatever kind of guy. No gender, no, no preferences, you know.
BrettWe might be soul sisters that way, who knows?
SPEAKER_06Okay, yeah. And I think that that a lot of younger people, younger than me, because I'm not even that young, feel very similarly where it is like they they don't really want to prescribe
Visibility, Androgyny, And Media Examples
SPEAKER_06to any rules about I any of it. Um they're straying sort of away from using the terms um and just saying they're queer, you know, a major blanket statement of being queer.
BrettI used to have a t-shirt that I wore to the gym all the time. It said boycott the binary.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
BrettAnd I'm sure I got like looks like, what? You're a dude with a beard lifting weights. Come on. But it was just that thing about, and I think that as I've gotten older, as I've looked at things, I feel like sexuality, there are so many combinations. I mean, we have these certain labels for it, but I recently interviewed somebody who was pansexual for the show and coming to grips with that and thinking about, hey, you know, to a degree, aren't we all? I mean, isn't this becoming something that maybe is a more of a truth than makes people comfortable? I think people like having those categories. Yeah, people like that.
SPEAKER_06If you as a man have ever found uh as an assume not you specifically, the royally royal you, as ever a man has ever seen a man and thought, man, that guy's kind of attractive, that's an attraction, you know?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_06It's I think that I think the way we're coming to that in sexuality is similar to how gender is sort of being questioned now, is that we're all a little bit of everything. Um, and it can be, you know, 1% of something and 99 the other, and that's still a mixture of whatever those two things are.
BrettGender, particularly, has become such a hot topic and a hot political thing. And I think that some of the confusion comes up with you have this identity of who I am. Yeah, have this description of how others should understand me, and then you've got these politics, like what systems am I resisting?
SPEAKER_06And when you don't say, I'm on this team, that's where people get like raise some alarms, or like, wait, we have a a whole system and social conduct constructed around you identifying with one of these things. What do you mean you don't? Yes, yeah.
BrettWell, one thing I find really fascinating is you're an artist and you perform a lot with catastrophic theater.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
BrettAnd they have given you an opportunity to sort of express a lot of this artistically,
Identity, Labels, And Fluidity
Brettwhich I think is very cool. Tell me about that.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, honestly, so I did reveal to you the recently that um I, you know, I I was out to a lot of my friends, my my theater family at Catastrophic for since the beginning, and they didn't get it for a long time. But since the last five years or so, they have really, really made the effort to include not only me, but many other non-binary and trans artists and their core artists. So in the last two shows I did, other than the Tamari Cooper show, which I'm playing myself, so I'm I assume that they're non-binary. Um I think I'm playing a non-binary hot dog or whatever.
SPEAKER_04But uh you're in a Tamry show.
SPEAKER_06So I did, so we did the um Spirits to Enforce recently, and that was the character I played was originally a woman. And I have no, I personally have no issues playing a woman or playing a man. I don't care. You know, it's an it's a character to me. But Jason, the director, we we happened to know Mikkel Maher, and we contacted him and asked if it's even possible to make that character non-binary, and they did. So that was like the first little hint. And then the frozen fiction, I got to play a character that was written as non-binary for the world premiere, and that was really magical for me to be able to play a character that that aligned with me so well.
BrettAnd not just a character that aligned with you so well, but that was basically the focus of the show.
SPEAKER_06So it was it's magic. It was beautiful, it was true inclusion, not just acceptance, but inclusion and love for the non-binary identity. And I could never think catastrophic more.
BrettYeah. Well, and then of course, Lisa Damore.
SPEAKER_06Yes, of course. Playwright, beautiful friend Lisa, yeah.
BrettYeah, Broadway, all sorts of things. What the heck?
SPEAKER_06Yes. I I adore, we we we had commissioned a play from her, and so we got to read some of her works in progress before she finished something for us. And so that's when I met her, and we connected really quickly. So I do I thank her and love her for writing Sage, who is semi-based on a non-binary student of hers.
BrettWell, I'm sure Lisa has a few.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Oh, yes, yeah.
BrettLisa is a writing teacher and focuses on drama. So I'm sure she comes across the queerdos and the misfits and everything else that we can imagine.
SPEAKER_06Another magical thing about being part of Catastrophic is seeing the room go from me in that isolated feeling that I'm never gonna meet other actors, other artists who I feel the same way as I do, to suddenly being one of like five non-binary people in a cast. Um it's rules. It's awesome.
BrettWell, I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna tell you this. People accuse me of not
Theater As Inclusion At Catastrophic
Bretttalking about politics because I've talked about theater so much. And yeah, and I'm like art. Okay. I remember when I got to Houston in the early 2000s and I was in theater and I did a lot of gay theater. I played a lot of parts that were aimed at gay men. I played a lot of parts that were aimed at people that had been affected by AIDS or had some kind of disenfranchisement, or even just like a basic love story that was just between two guys. I actually did this play where they did like this Fred and Ginger thing where it was both guys, you know. And it was just this sweet little thing, and it was like, but it had that statement behind it. And I realized that when I came to Houston, there was a lot of that and it disappeared. And I spent the last couple of years kind of mourning that, and I'm going, well, where is the queer theater? Where's the gay theater? And then I realized that while I was watching Catastrophic and while I was reviewing their pieces, here is where the queer theater is. And every production has some element of this in there, but I would say the non-binary and the trans issues for them are front and center on in every show. I mean, I can't even think of a production that does not bring it up in some way, shape, form, or fashion. And they have become the default queer theater. And I think that when I was back in the 2000s, that's what we needed. But now I think we need this because I think there's so much more to address to the trans Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Well, we we, you know, the way that we used to see medical discrimination among gay men and gay people in general, but is what we're seeing now in laws and politics is trans bathroom laws and stuff like that, employment issues uh among trans people. I mean, I got I got fired after my my my um coworker found out I was non-binary, not that like last year.
BrettFired you for that is what you felt like.
SPEAKER_06What I felt like, yes. It was what I believe happened. Um it was very, very soon after my coworker admitted she did not like trans things.
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_06Um so like it's it's still very prevalent, even and I and that was in that was a a place here in Montrose. Like that I live next doors essentially to right-aligned restaurants. You know, it's it's very prevalent amongst us, and it's clear what who they are targeting. And so I think that is a form of rebellion that Catastrophic does, it's just to include us in pretty much every show. You know, one of our main core artists, Abraham, is non-binary. T, the person who runs our social media is non-binary. I've been working with them for off and on 10 years, non-binary. You know, and we've always been really queer. You know, Kyle is one of our longest members, and he's he's obviously gay. And at this point, Jason is somewhere in there.
BrettI tease Jason. Me too. I tease all the time. Because I'm like, you know you're part of the community now.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, he is, and I think he does know that now. He's like, oh, he's an honorary queer, you know.
BrettCome on. I'm like, what is this?
Queer Theater’s Evolution In Houston
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
BrettBut I do think you are no matter what job you do during the day, your work with Catastrophic and that company, I think, really speaks to that. And I'm very proud of you for doing that and for being that. I mean, I remember frozen section, I was like, wow, this is an amazing definitive presentation of a non-binary character in a world where it doesn't really matter.
unknownYeah.
BrettNot not in a like nobody took it and and and was like, or anything like that.
SPEAKER_06So I have a lot much younger friends sometimes, and I express to them that when I was a kid, uh Degrassi came out, and Marco on Degrassi came out as gay. And in the same episode, he was hate crimes. And I watched that episode 20 times. I watched it two times in a row uh because I was obsessed. That was our representation. And now we can have representation that is just a story that isn't about us being injured or harmed or fired or anything, it's about just us living our lives, and so like I I can never be more grateful for that.
BrettYeah, thank goodness. I was so sick of doing the normal heart and fighting every night. Well, you have a very supportive family, from what I've seen. Your mom is like a superhero. Has she always been that way?
SPEAKER_06For the most part. My mom has always had her heart in the right place of wanting to support me. She didn't get it at first at all. She definitely would have understood more. She was like, Why aren't you just a boy? Um, or why can't you just be a masculine woman? And and I think that was a coming from a place of sort of feminism of, well, okay, but a woman can be anything, which I totally get. And that's totally valid. There are lots of women who do all kinds of things. But it did take her a minute and she but she got on board. She got on board to to the point that actually my mother uses she, they pronouns. Oh wow. My my whole family is queer. It's pretty awesome. I mean we're uh I'm they them then we have another they them then we have a she they and a he they so we're like oh that's all my siblings and then my mom is pronounced soup over there it is it is it's totally alphabet soup in our in our family it it it did I it took a long time and I do feel like I was sort of the the um the the the brick that put it all in place um and allowed sort of them to build the build the wall on to on top which is hard to say um it's it's hard to compliment yourself if that's even a compliment they I I adore them on especially on that front they are all insanely supportive to the point that they are part of our community now themselves.
BrettAnd that is wild because I think that's a big difference of living in this era. Yeah but this era still stinks in the sense of and you hit upon it earlier the logs it's hard the bathroom bills and the what the heck are we even worried about. I don't understand this obsession with it. I'm always just like just choose one I don't care.
SPEAKER_06It's for real like it's just a bathroom you have one and you have a gender neutral bathroom in your house you know
Politics, Prejudice, And Daily Realities
SPEAKER_06always and on a plane and everywhere it totally comes from control especially of our children. They don't want to not control their children and to the point that they want to control what toilet their genitals land on. So um it it is scary. It's scary because especially where we live we live in you know beautiful blue state beautiful mantros for me but still still you never know.
BrettWell what scares me the most going into this new year is that the federal government now has really gotten in the mix and entered the chat and put an age on it. And how old were you when you kind of realized your identity?
SPEAKER_06I was probably 24, 25 okay well okay so uh early I don't think I'm gonna ask my mom if I could wear marry a woman so you started questioning things yeah yeah very I think that's my point.
BrettYeah. Yeah yeah yeah so it does seem weird that we are policing people's expression of natural exploration. Yeah I don't know why you know there's a lot we could go down that road and there is quite a bit and and maybe we can save it for next year Brett. Yes no I think we should get like a council a council of trans. Kind of like a council of elders but no thank you you know I think you've helped I think this is an issue that certain age groups really struggle with. And we were talking before the interview that I think even like older gay men I think have the problem and and like I told you it's because sometimes with language and pronouns we create this blurry line of calling everybody girl and I think that it also comes from like a like well who like who do they think they are kind of almost yeah.
SPEAKER_06Um and it's a very sort of even outside of gay culture is sort of like a an older person thing where it's like oh these young people with their crazy newfangled stuff and they and people come from a place of fear of being left behind to and that they oh they don't get it so they're not cool anymore. Sort of thing there's all kinds of different triggers for feeling that way. But I have experienced many times over people of all ages opening up their heart and minds and figuring it out. Because we're all just people and I think that's what is the most important thing about meeting somebody who is non-binary whether they correct you on pronouns or not they're just a person they're just a person trying to get through their life and most of the time it it's not that big a deal.
BrettYeah and and please do correct me anytime.
SPEAKER_06And I and I would and I would you have to I am I am so open to that I know some people get a little like eh but I'm like no please because girl is such a big thing right now constantly I get sorry I didn't mean and I'm like no you can call me girl it's fine.
BrettWell I call people girl I call people dude yeah I mean it's it's all over the map. It's it's terrible. But I think that when you correlate it to something and I think that historically if we look at it because it's an old concept androgyny is not anything new no non-binary is not anything
Family Acceptance And “Alphabet Soup”
Brettnew. We just have to have a new term and a new spin and a new kind of languaging to go around it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
BrettBut I also correlate it to what I see as bi-erasure or bisexual people from certain sides of the community like say hey get off the fence I want you on one side or the other and I think that that's the core of this. And if we could just get to a point where the people that don't want to go into column A and column B can comfortably sit in their own space and have their own expression of it. And that's what I appreciate about you and so many of the artists there at catastrophic and everything.
SPEAKER_06So thank you Brad for for helping to challenge my belief system and my I'm happy to do it anytime my world they are good too.
DeborahYes gender expansion for everyone this radio program Weird Voices has existed since the 1970s on KPFT we have this little crew of folks working every week to produce what's no longer unique because we're almost mainstream now but we're still an important voice that might not otherwise get heard because it's not on that many places. So KPFT is very important to give voices to those who might not otherwise have voices you participate by listening you should also participate by supporting the station so please go to kpft.org and make your donation right away this is Brett Cullum and today I'm joined by Andrew Robler a director and tech designer based here in Houston he founded the Octurene Accord is a company member of Strange Bird Immersive
Laws, Bathrooms, And Control
Deborahhe's run other companies and has been a director and we're gonna hit on the directing stuff pretty hard because he's got an event coming up one director no safety net it's all going to take place at Studio 101.
BrettIt is also going to be live streamed on YouTube and Facebook and uh Studio 101 that's on Spring Street correct correct yeah it's where Force Wall works out of yeah yes yes thank you Andrew for helping me out here I feel like I'm already uh relying on you as a director of this show. So obviously you've got a natural charisma for this but what made you want to do this project? I mean seriously 14 hours of different casts the actors change every hour correct yep yep it's a 20 more than 25 local Houston actors that will be coming and going throughout the day.
SPEAKER_02Yeah what made you want to do this well so I am just about to finish my MFA in theater with a concentration in directing from Randolph College in Lynchburg, Virginia and for my thesis work for that MFA, I uh developed a project that I had long dreamed of called Deconstructing Directing. And it is an online resource library and paradigm for theater directors. And it is meant to address the basically complete lack, not literally complete lack there are resources out there for directors, but they are very few and far between. And I I have realized over the years as a performer, as a director, as a designer, that we we don't do a good enough job in the American theater of training directors and we don't do a good enough job of supporting directors. And so Deconstructing Directing is a free online resource library that is designed to basically help anyone who wants to learn to direct as well as help directors who are looking for professional development and growth opportunities a way to access those without financial barriers. So Director's Cut which it's the the the foundation of this marathon was a show that I developed for some fringe festivals this summer that was designed to
Generational Gaps And Pronouns
SPEAKER_02put into practice a lot of what I write about on deconstructing directing and what I teach about there and to demonstrate a new way of thinking about directing and approaching directing. And so the marathon is kind of a celebration of the completion of the MFA, kind of a an MFA showcase in a sense for myself, but also an opportunity to promote the launch of three new sections of material that are going to go up on deconstructing directing that day. So that the launch of kind of the next phase of that resource library and those free resources for directors. So that's that's the impetus behind this kind of a celebratory thing but also something to try and get some eyeballs on the work that I'm doing and let people know that this resource exists for them and for other people in the theater community.
BrettIf I want to access this resource, Deconstructing Directing, where am I going to find it?
SPEAKER_02Where does it live? Deconstructingdirecting dot com nice example. Yeah and then when you get there you'll look for the library it'll ask you to sign up for a free library card just so that you can access the material but it's completely free and uh and right now there's two it's structured in acts and scenes um so kind of like units and modules you can kind of think about it that way. So two acts are up currently it's about six hours of video content that's also available in podcast form and written form along with worksheets and handouts and things like that. And this next launch will more than double the content on the site. So it'll go from about 45,000 words of content to 109,000 words of content. And you're not charging for any of this. I am not charging for any of this there is I do have another kind of piece to deconstructing that I call the upstream directors studio um and that is uh I kind of describe it as a yoga studio but for directing um and it's all online and those those classes I do charge for but and I'll be launching another kind of wave of those classes on the 24th as well. And then I have some other things down the road that'll that'll have a cost to associated with it. But part of the problem I find with the way that the industry is set up, the field is set up is that people don't have the resources to pay for a lot of training, especially directors who are often jumping from project to project very quickly and often feel very isolated. And so the goal there was to minimize the barriers and to really make sure that it's available for anyone who needs it. So it's it's my my offering my service project to this field that I love so dearly.
BrettWell what I think is interesting is I think that when we look at the landscape and let's just take Houston theater scene, we have this perception of here is the theater district and here is the
KPFT Mission And Community Support
Bretthobby theater and the alley and you know Tuts and all of these companies that are pretty big, pretty well funded probably have some directors that have a lot of education behind them. Absolutely are all parts of unions and do these things professionally and and they're working with casts that are equity but a large number of the theatrical works that are produced in Houston are pretty much see to their pants. They are people that are just kind of like doing that old spirit of let's put on a show, let's run out of space at the match, let's go. So so yeah they're not trained. What are you seeing that makes you want to like offer them some kind of coaching is there some kind of disconnect is there I don't want to say a toxic environment or you know something that they're doing
Introducing Andrew And The Marathon
Brettjeopardizing actors or yeah so there's there's a number of different things.
SPEAKER_02This kind of started probably about 10 years ago when I started my my first professional theater company up the road in College Station that I ran for five years. That was the first time that I could I I was interacting with actors who had very clear trauma from prior rehearsal rooms and experiences. Yeah, even had a the most notable story is one I tell often and that is an actor who when I gave them the opportunity to kind of make a choice for a scene and not, you know, not dictate exactly how they were needed to pursue the scene, they broke down in tears. And so we stopped and and gave them a moment and then I kind of asked them gently afterwards, hey what's going on and they they told me that their high school theater director had would do the same thing and then when they made quote unquote the wrong choice would scream at them and yell at them. And I hear that a lot. I in fact I don't know a single theater artist who doesn't have at least one director horror story. And the reality is that the vast majority of directors out there are not bad people. They're not people who do these types of things and behave these ways intentionally. But what has happened is that because there isn't any sort of formal training or assessment on a company level about of directors and their process, because directors are judged almost entirely on product on the show at the end, and that's true even in training programs like college classes, et cetera, because there's no focus on training process or assessing process, the vast majority of directors are trained through observation. So the most common way in community theater or upstream theater for a director to get trained is to assist and direct. And that is the worst defined role in the American theater like what an assistant director
Deconstructing Directing: The Why And What
SPEAKER_02does and vary wildly from show to show it dependent on who the director is. And if you have directors who have never never been taught to mentor somebody paired with a mentee who has no idea what to expect from that process, then what ends up happening is that the mentee, the learner is left to kind of guess and figure out why things are working the way that they're working in the room, what's leading to the result that's that's getting there. And so what ends up happening is that people continue problematic and unhealthy practices without realizing that they're problematic and unhealthy and without realizing that maybe there's another way to do that. And so a lot of my focus is on trying to get really specific and granular about exactly what it is that a director does and how do we scaffold that for people so that they can actually treat those as skills that need to be developed rather than just luck or talent that that kind of you know brings them into the process fully formed as a director because it doesn't. But that's the assumption that we make because we don't give directors support. You can either direct or you can't there's no sense of growth or or anything like that outside of MFA programs, which are very few and very expensive and require you know you to uproot your life for the most part for two to three years. So that's that that's a lot of what I saw and what I still see in the field that led to this this project.
BrettWell it's interesting because you think about this and you think about actors and there are so many methods for actors. Exactly I mean there's some actors that you know subscribe to you know whatever school of thought you know Udahagan you know what method acting Raspergad yeah all of it Meisner yes and I always found with actors I was like do what works for you. Uh whatever it takes for you to get there because I know some people are a little bit more one way or the other so it's it's kind of wild to think about directors. I I think that everybody do you think everybody has their own style?
SPEAKER_02I mean I think everyone definitely has their own style but the reality is is that it that it's still a job, right? And that job has particular things that that are going to stay the same across every directing gig. So in the curriculum I break it down and using an acronym called FLAM which is that it breaks it down into five skill sets. So facilitation, leadership, artistic insight and taste, management and education and slash mentorship. And those are five things that every director is going to do on every project, regardless of whether they're also the producer, also the scenic designer, also all these other things, especially in upstream theater that that's very common for a director to wear multiple hats, but understanding what is their director hat and what are the skills that they can develop before the rehearsal period starts rather than learning in the room. Because the reality is we're asking actors and designers to participate in a very emotionally vulnerable process, especially when it's a show with charged material and to basically
Free Library, Classes, And Access
SPEAKER_02an untested or untrained director into that mix and say, okay, figure it out is really problematic because it it it accepts that harm is going to happen and that you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. And but we're not talking about eggs. We're talking about human beings we're talking about human souls and minds and hearts and and I I I think that that's that's really the impetus for me is that I I love this work so much and I know that the the vast majority of directors want to not cause that harm but they don't realize that they are or they don't know how to stop. And so that's that's where these tools come in.
BrettDo you think it's like the yelling, the belittling, the kind of trying to get them into that headspace of whatever the tone of the show is maybe I know that there's some directors that I feel like they purposefully create the environment that the play is so if you're doing a show about World War II concentration camps, they run the rehearsal room like that and you really feel that the authenticity of you know I'm in a gulag or whatever. It's interesting to me to think about the different methodologies of directors because I think some rely on maybe pretty staging others are known more as actors directors. Some of them set the blocking like almost militaristically and then others say go where you want on the stage. Let's see where you end up.
SPEAKER_02But I think the thing about that that's really challenging is that very few directors I talk to can verbalize why they work that way, right? What benefit or value the way that they prefer to work gives them. And so that creates a lot of problems when it comes to how do we improve as artists, how do we grow? How do we how do we learn you know in the same way that an actor ideally every show that they do is going to teach them something about who they are as an artist, the same thing needs to be true of directors. But if we can't get really specific about the underpinnings of why we make the choices that we do in the room, one, we can't communicate that clearly to our production teams or to our casts and that vagueness leaves room for assumptions. And one of the things I talk about in deconstructing directing is that the
Fixing Harmful Rehearsal Rooms
SPEAKER_02source of resentment, which is the number one source of toxicity in any workplace, but especially in theater, the source of resentment is mismatched expectations and assumptions. So it's when two people come in assuming that both know the exact same thing, have the exact same training, know exactly what this rehearsal call means or what off book means or what you know this thing means or that thing means and assuming that everyone knows that until you the breakdown happens when you realize that oh no, they actually don't. And in the meantime, because we're not trained how to have those conversations and directors aren't trained how to lead those conversations, that's where resentment builds and that's where feeling gets feelings get hurt and eventually toxicity starts to starts to come out. So it's really about reducing as much as possible kind Because we'll never be able to fully eliminate assumptions, but reducing as much as possible the assumptions behind our work and being able to talk about those different methodologies, those different styles and approaches to directing.
BrettGoing back to the event on January 24th. Okay. Which is why we're here. Yeah. I mean, I could I could talk directing with you all day. But what are you hoping that somebody gets out of it? Like if I come in for an hour just to see you direct for an hour, what are you hoping that I get out of that?
SPEAKER_02So the first thing I'm hoping that you get out of it is enjoyment, entertainment. You know, there is something really beautiful about getting to watch the process of this show. When I did the show at some fringe festivals in the Midwest this summer, I had one audience member who came up to me and after the show and she was just grinning ear to ear. And she said, it's like a brewery tour, but for theater. It's that like back, you know, it's it's getting to watch process. And for artists, I think that that's valuable because oftentimes we don't get to just watch process. We're we're in process. And yes, we may be observing, but we have other jobs. And so to be able to just sit and watch other artists work is really valuable and enjoyable. And for non-theater folks, I think getting a peek behind the curtain and seeing just how much work goes into what we do, but also get getting to watch the moments of discovery. Because I think for those of us that do theater, we we love those moments in rehearsal where like, you know, something happens and you're like, oh, that's great, let's do that. And so to get to see that in live, like in real time is really exciting. So I think entertainment is the number one thing. But I think the number two thing is that I hope that the approach that I take in this show to working with the actors really kind of de-emphasizes the importance or the singular auteur vision of a director. That really it's about this process is about these actors bringing themselves to this role that they have no idea what they're playing before they get handed the script on stage. And me as a
Training Gaps And Mentorship Failures
SPEAKER_02director helping to shape the scene for those actors specifically and not coming in with some predetermined, like, okay, we're gonna do this scene this way, but instead saying, okay, how can we work together to create something magical? And uh I haven't failed yet. I've done the show over 20 times now over the summer and haven't had one not work. It always ends up beautifully at the end of the R hour. But those are the two main things that I'm hoping people get out of it. And then the third, I suppose, is that I hope that they are interested enough to check out deconstructing directing uh for themselves or share it with people that they think would be would be interested.
BrettNow Director's Cut is it's also a show?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean that's how I that's how I uh started it. It's a one-hour show. So that's what I'm repeating. That's what I'm repeating 12 times over the 14 hours. So it's the same structure, but it'll be a different scene and different actors. Ah, okay. I'm trying to wrap my head around all of this. To my knowledge, nothing like this has ever existed before. It's it's definitely takes a minute to wrap your head around it. Yeah. Where is Randolph College? It's in Lynchburg, Virginia. Okay. And that's that's actually where I am right now at my final residency because I graduate on Tuesdays.
BrettOh, congratulations. Thank you. So you're gonna do that before this actually goes up. Oh, okay. So you'll be able to graduate by then. Yep. All right, so it'll all be old by then. We've got it. Who are some of the actors just off the top of your head? I know I've seen a list and a breakdown, and you don't have to give me everybody because I know it's an army of people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's a it's a good group. So uh a number of folks that I think anyone who loves Houston theater are gonna recognize. So I've got folks like Kalina Anderson, Lindsay Earhart, uh, Christian Tenouse, Ty Fisher, Adina Opalek, Cheney Moore, some folks from uh Octarina Cord that I've worked with over the years, I'm including Magdalene Vaughn and Patrick Barton. Um so just a wide kind of swath of folks that work with different theater companies in town that are all working actors here in Houston.
BrettI noticed that there's like pairs or trios. How did they select that or how did you do that? Did you pair them up?
SPEAKER_02I paired them up. Uh so basically I sent uh I sent an email out and said, if you're interested, tell me what times you would be available during the day. And then that was kind of that was really the main impetus was who's available when and kind of put it in putting that puzzle together. But I also, you know, part of the job of a director is to consider the actors, right? So the pieces that I select for each of the shows will be selected with those actors in mind and not just picking random, random text. Um, and so when I pair the actors, I do do try to think about like, okay, how are their energies going to play off of one another? Can I think of scenes that I have in my my scene bank for this this project that would that would work for them? So that's kind of the two-step process.
BrettI think it'll be interesting because you named the actors and there are definitely names that I recognize, uh, but there are some that I could see where if you put this one with that one, it might be some really interesting results. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
The FLAME Skill Set For Directors
BrettAnd actually, one thing that just is obviously I've uh done some shows with some of these actors, so it'll be interesting to see how you handle them. Yeah. Because I would be going in knowing, oh, this one's gonna do this. Or ask this. So let's see what happens. Absolutely. That's part of the fun. Uh yeah, no, it is. It's it's definitely, it's it's it's a definite uh experiential thing where you really don't know what's going to happen with these people. So it should be really fun. So January 24th, 9 a.m. to 11 p.m. Are you taking breaks? Are you like doing meals?
SPEAKER_02There'll be a 10-minute break in between each show for the audience to cycle over and the actors to cycle over. So I'll have time to like use the bathroom, scarf some food. I have people bringing me food throughout the day, and um, I got a great team of of folks from the Octorine Accord that are helping me with like front of house management and stuff throughout the day. Um, and so yeah, I've got a good, good plan. But uh, but yeah, it's really the the the goal is gonna be no more than 10 minute break, and then we go right into the next one.
BrettSo if I if I buy a ticket for this and I go for all 14 hours, I better pack a lunch. Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02There's not a lunch break. It is is very much like a like a 10 minutes in and out for the transition, and that's it.
BrettOkay. Seating, is it traditional theater seating or is it gonna be?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it'll be uh so Studio 101, Fourth Wall have part of their setup for the counter, but we'll be working on the stage in front of that, and it'll be in the seating for fourth wall.
BrettSo Okay. All right, so like a three-quarter thrust situation. Okay. All right. Well, you're brave. Andrew, I have always thought you were brave. I saw um Doctorina Cord shows and and just thought, how does somebody direct this? Because they're so experiential. And I was talking about the last show that I think Midnight High. Two people walk in there, they're gonna see two different shows. 100%. Now, some of it will be the same, but some of it will not, because it depends on what happens and how you wander around the environment. And I was very impressed because it was a lot of actors, some I had seen before and many that I had not, but they all kind of reached the same level, which I was very impressed by that there wasn't um normally when you have a mixed cast like that, you can tell who's, you know, who's a new one and who's not that one.
SPEAKER_02I think that's one of my strengths as a director is that, and that's something I've heard a lot over the years, is that I I and part of that I think is because I'm I was an actor first, but um I to me, the most important thing about any show I direct are the relationships between the characters and the story and the characters in each other. And so I put a
Process Over Product And Clear Expectations
SPEAKER_02lot of time and energy and work into helping actors rise to that net and and meet that. So it means a lot to hear you say that because it's something I care a lot about. And um, I'm also a big believer in um giving people chances and not just casting based on previous work. And so getting to see things in the record in the audition room and the callback space that give me the opportunity to help someone have an opportunity that they might not otherwise get with another director is really important to me. So I'm glad that that was your experience. I noticed you used he, they pronouns. Yes.
BrettTell me a little bit about that. And I know that recently, I think you were in a Zoom Shakespeare production and you played a different gender.
SPEAKER_02Did I? I don't think I did. Oh yes. No, I did. So I was part of their oh my gosh, what did they call it? That they did an event recently where they did monologues, uh, miscast. Wasn't Miscast?
BrettYes, miscast or whatever, but it was like a mix.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So I did a Lady Macbeth monologue, although I did kind of reimagine it as a queer male-male relationship. So yeah, queer, queer themes. So I I came out as as gay originally in 2010, but uh during the pandemic, thanks to TikTok, honestly, I gotta love the TikTok. Yeah, I I finally kind of made peace with the reality that I'm non-binary, which was something that I had kind of resisted for a long time because I didn't see myself as androgynous and I didn't want to like take up space, especially as someone who was assigned male at birth and is white and middle class. I didn't want to like take up air that you know other people needed. But there was I did did a lot of searching and realization. And it for me, what that means, what being non-binary means, is that I just don't think about my gender. I don't really care about my gender. Like to me, I'm I'm me. So I say they or any pronouns that are used with respect are fine. You can call me he, you can call me she, you can call me they. To me, what's important is that you know me as me and not make assumptions based on the assumptions we have in society around gender. And that definitely comes out in my work directorally. Um, I I tend to prefer queer uh leaning stories and um and things with with queer themes or queer characters. And that's not to say that I I don't direct shows with straight characters, but um it's definitely something that I'm really passionate about.
What Audiences Gain Watching Process
BrettWhat was interesting when I went to Saw Midnight High, I think you had some gender-swapped roles that traditionally would be played by a male or or female assigned to birth, and it was flipped around on its head in all races and everything else. I mean, it was just there were there were no rules, and it did not impede any of the experience, and it did not take you out of it. I think that that's the biggest fear that people have, and and you kind of prove that that's not necessarily a concern that you need to have. So that's a nice thing to see. So, what is next for you after this crazy, okay, you're graduating, you've got your MFA, you're gonna do this uh nutty director's cut 14 hours, Studio 101.
SPEAKER_02What's after that? So we are still kind of planning uh the next things for the Octarine Accord. Our big focus for 2026 is gonna be community. We really want to focus on, you know, right now, I think, especially with the emergence of these AI technologies, even more so than before. I think that the the friction points between humans, you know, the in-person kind of opportunities to connect become even more valuable and even more important. So we started an event uh with partnering with Rec Room this last summer, and then we did it again in the fall called Void of Form, which is kind of a salon kind of in-process work-sharing night that's a lot of fun and has like a dance party afterwards. So we're hoping to do more of those this year. I just uh am about to finish a tabletop RPG show, live show that we started called Shards of Octarine using a game system called Daggerheart. And so we we've done uh four of the five parts of that uh over the last fall at Eureka Heights and Moontower Inn. And uh so we finished that on the 16th. But then my hope is to do some more arcs, some more stories with different groups of players and do some live events that way in 2026. And then there's a couple of adaptation projects that I'm talking to some authors about. There's a male-male romantic novel that I'm looking at adapting to a stage production and a few other projects. Some more I'm helping local actor Jeff Wax work on a one-man show for fringe festivals this summer. So just, you know, take and work where I can get it and and then I'm gonna keep working on deconstructing and keep building that and promoting that and teaching those classes. You know, nothing nothing much.
BrettYeah. Just take over the world. Yeah. All right. Well, I will see you January 25th. So we will definitely see you. I'll at least I'll wave to you from a distance while you're while you're trying to take actors through this. I love it. I love so much. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Queer Voices. This show is a loose collective of volunteers who work to bring you perspectives about culture and politics from a queer point of view. I am Brett Cullum, and I'm a producer. Brian Lovinka is our executive producer, and Deborah Moncrete Bell is a producer as well.
Structure Of The 14-Hour Event
BrettArlie Ingalls, Davis Mendoza DeRuzman, Jacob Newsom, and Joel Tatum are contributors. Thank you for listening, and I will see you next week.
